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It all started with Stop the Islamization of Norway (SIAN), leader Lars Thorsen described former Deputy Mayor (V) and politician Yousuf Gilani as a “dangerous bridge builder” and “verbal jihadist” in a post on the website of SIAN this summer.
Gilani’s response to this was to invite Thorsen out for a curry, where Thorsen replied again that he had no interest in dining with Gilani, but would be happy to meet him in a debate.
Also read: Gilani and Thorsen have set a date for the dialogue meeting
Now members of SIAN and the Muslim Dialogue Forum organization will come together for a highly debated dialogue meeting – “Islam in Norway – can bridges be built?”
Both Lars Thorsen and Yousuf Gilani have previously told Dagsavisen Fremtiden that the purpose of this dialogue meeting is to better understand each other and spread information and knowledge about Islam.
So it remains to be seen: can this dialogue meeting lead to a better understanding of both sides?
Yousuf Gilani, Hatice Lük and Sajid Mukthar from the Muslim Dialogue Forum will be at the Drammen Library this Saturday afternoon. Politician SV Nazir Gondal decided to withdraw from the dialogue meeting, as he thought that SIAN only seeks more attention and not dialogue. SIAN is accompanied by Leader Lars Thorsen, Deputy Director Ellen Due Brynjulfsen and Secretary Fanny Bråten, while Lars Petter Soltvedt, Associate Professor at USN, Drammen campus, is the leader of the meeting.
Also read: SIAN and Gilani are planning a debate
– It’s nice to have a watch that says I’m stressed, Gilani jokingly says while waiting for the meeting to start.
For infection control reasons, only the press is present among the public.
– I am glad that we have taken a step in the right direction. So now we are sitting here with SIAN and we will discuss Islam, Gilani starts when the meeting has started.
Gilani goes on to say that the imams are present to answer the questions SIAN has raised before the meeting regarding verses from the Quran that the organization finds problematic, and that he hopes this can contribute to a better understanding of the religion.
Then it is Lars Thorsen’s turn to introduce himself and why SIAN has lined up for this dialogue meeting.
– We have agreed to participate in a dialogue about Islam in Norway and whether bridges can be built, says Thorsen and continues:
– We believe that Islam in Norway is harmful. We will also affirm that Norway is a better country to live in than the countries ruled by Islam. So what does building a bridge entail? Does anyone have to change your values for you to be successful? We believe that we must have a common set of values and, as we see it, the Islam that we associate with cannot exist in Norway without democracy being undermined by it. Islam also has terrorists. Terrorists don’t build bridges, they blow them up. It will be a challenge to build a bridge, so we will see what we can achieve, he concludes.
Also read: SIAN meets the Muslim Dialogue Forum: “Dialogue is not for the faint of heart”
Then Soltvedt begins the dialogue by reading the questions from both parties.
– There are many Koranic verses that I think are problematic. An in-depth debate on individual verses will not by itself be able to show whether Islam is compatible with human rights or not, Soltvedt quotes SIAN.
However, SIAN has questioned specific verses from the Qur’an that they believe violate human rights. The organization claims that Islam has a rule that all Muslims must find and kill all non-Muslims, and that Muslims and non-Muslims cannot coexist.
After a review of the verses of the Quran it refers to and what they mean according to theologians, Sajid Mukhtar responds that Muslims have actually existed alongside non-Muslims in Norway since the late 1960s.
– During all these years, there have been three terrorist attacks in Norway, and all of them have been against Muslims. We are happy in Norway, which gives us freedom of speech and religion. Everyone should have religious freedom. So that disproves SIAN’s claims, continues Mukhtar.
Read also: Leader of Sian: – I promise not to burn the Koran
The dialogue, or discussion, continues and, at times, becomes relatively broad. SIAN believes that, according to the Quran, Muslims can kill non-Muslims without being punished. The Muslim dialogue forum believes that this is not true, but that on the contrary, you, as a Muslim, according to the Quran, must live in harmony and follow the constitution and rules of the country in which you live.
– What does Islam mean in Norway? Soltvedt asks SIAN on behalf of the Muslim Dialogue Forum.
– It means the same as Islam in the rest of the world. It does not matter the time or the place. Islam is a way of thinking, and it’s the same no matter what, and it’s a problem, Thorsen says.
So a new question arises to SIAN: Does SIAN distance itself from the terrorist acts of Anders Behring Breivik, and what do you think of the people associated with SIAN praising Breivik as a hero on social media?
– I don’t know if Breivik has been hailed as a hero. There are discussions about his actions, but he has not been praised. Terror is an unacceptable political tool from which we completely distance ourselves. But what he himself wanted to say and cut and paste from other opinion leaders, it should be possible to argue, Thorsen replies.
When asked what SIAN wants to achieve by burning and desecrating the Qur’an, Thorsen replies that a message can be conveyed in other ways.
– We have burned the Quran on one occasion, so we have also communicated in other ways. The Qur’an has been a response to what we consider abuse and rape by the police. It was the only legal tool we had to respond, and it was a protest against allowing Islamization. There is also a form of political opposition to the message of the Qur’an. Europe will not submit to sharia, it continues.
Also read: “Politicians can say what they want, as long as they do not swear”
Then it is the turn of the Muslim Dialogue Forum to answer a question from Fanny Bråthen: How can Islam contribute to making Norway a good country to live in?
– You can contribute in many ways. I can only speak for myself: there are 72 different religions, and they all agree that you should live in harmony in the country you live in. When I walk out the door, I wonder if I can contribute to making Drammen or Norway better. There are values that I have thanks to Islam, answers Gilani.
Bråten responds that “we talk about Islam as we see Islam”, she believes that one cannot sweep the problems with Islam in Norway under the rug.
– And then we can start with the vision of women. More recently, it was an Afghan who killed his ex-wife, Bråthen claims.
– But is it because of Islam? You can have a distorted view of women regardless of their religion, and non-Muslims also commit honor killings. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with Islam, Gilani replies.
Hatice Lük argues that Muslim women are not necessarily killed for honor.
– There are sick people who choose to kill. I got divorced twice and those men are more afraid of me, at least they won’t kill me, he says.
This makes Fanny Bråten speak out.
– Is it possible to build a bridge ?! You are not honest. We are not talking about you, start reading a bit, then you can see what is happening with Muslim women in Muslim households. Honor killings, negative social control: no, don’t try it, she says, obviously annoying.
Also read: “SIAN probably won’t go away on its own if ignored”
There, the discussion is interrupted by the president of the meeting, who affirms that the panels are beginning to have a hard time and must move on.
Then comes the issue that can be described as the basis of the disagreements between the two parties: SIAN’s views that the goal of Islam is for sharia to replace the constitution or to make the constitution compatible with sharia.
– If you want to live in an Islamic state, you can move to a place with an Islamic government. You shouldn’t come and want to change a system of government in a country where you are a guest, Thorsen says.
This causes Sajid Mukhtar to react.
– Guest? I was born here, he exclaims.
– I know many Norwegian Muslims, Gilani intervenes and continues:
– But have I met anyone who wants to introduce sharia in Norway? I do not have that. So I wonder who is telling you this.
Read also: Solberg on Muslim hatred: – Hope is in the youth
It is Lars Thorsen who answers:
– Muslims themselves. Unfortunately, it is not the case that Muslims change brains when they move to a new country. According to polls, the majority of Muslims will abide by sharia.
Thorsen further explains that he believes Muslims can change the constitution by assuming political power.
– And you can do it in many ways. Most of the countries that have been Islamized have been by invasion, says Thorsen.
Then the chairman of the meeting says that there is a limit to what one can agree to in two hours of dialogue. When you ask the panels if they are open to continuing the dialogue at later times, both parties answer yes.
– This is another step in the right direction, says Gilani.
– Yes. Bridge building must be defined before we can say if it makes sense. I still don’t know what that really means. If you can help stop Islamization in Norway, then the answer is yes, says Thorsen.
So it remains to be seen if bridges can be built between the parties.
Read also: Selbekk on Sian debate: believes NRK has done great service to Norwegian Muslims
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