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The program includes Attorney General Evaldas Pašilis, Chief of the Special Investigation Service Žydrūnas Bartkus and former Head of the FNTT, now Mayor of the Joniškis Vitalijus Gailius district.
– In the pre-trial investigation, there were 11 suspects, including three prosecutors, an FNTT official, a lawyer, and others. They, like you, the prosecutor, have said, possibly seeking justice seeking favorable but illegal solutions in cases of financial machinations. The investigation began when data was received that prosecutors and an FNTT official were meeting with a lawyer, discussing the progress of the cases and various non-public details of the case. You mentioned that the case of Ūkio bankas, credit unions and other cases in the field of FNTT is also being discussed. How long does this study take and to what extent?
E. Pašilis: For tactical reasons, I would not like to emphasize the dates of the entire period, but we are really talking about more than a few months. We appreciate that this is a lengthy study. I think we should be happy with the result we have today, after all there is enough data to raise suspicions. We believe that this period is not so relevant, at least for the moment.
– Now, looking at the case file, as far as the Attorney General should know, answers his own questions about some of the known cases, we will mention them again, why have they been investigated for so long, why did they travel from an official to another, etc.?
E. Pašilis: It would be more speculative if he made connections to the allegations made against these prosecutors. More in-depth research is needed. I think the official inspections will answer many questions. There really is no need to go ahead, inspections are starting today, prosecutors have been removed from office. I can only say that I have no doubt that in the area of financial investigations, the prosecution will be stronger, specializations will be evaluated and several cases will be inspected. And we really do have a lot of challenges: the Civil Property Confiscation Act itself has been passed recently, making it a very important area in the fight against financial crime and, of course, in the recovery of property illegally seized by the state .
– Mr. Bartkau, if you could comment a little more on the investigation of the case, did you suspect that you were in contact with people who did not seem to speak and communicate with each other?
Ž. Bartkus Not quite. The criminal process has several stages and during the pre-trial investigation, both prosecutors, investigators and lawyers can and are forced to communicate on one or the other subject. However, there are always signs that force us to investigate corruption offenses to verify information. In this case, I would say that it should be noted that this is probably the first pre-trial investigation in Lithuania, which revealed possible systemic corruption in the pre-trial stage. And here, apparently, it should be noted a significant fact that such a case was investigated in cooperation with the institutions. Apparently, this is easier and faster, and of better research quality. In this case, the joint action of the FNTT leadership, the Attorney General’s office and the STT has led to the result we have.
– Systemic corruption in pre-trial investigation: can you go as far as you want to specific cases, but could you describe a typical scheme?
Ž. Bartkus I can. I will not go into specific cases, but the typical decisions or stages in which circumstances could be negotiated in a corrupt way are undoubtedly the end of the pre-trial investigation in the pre-trial stage, the closure of the case, the separation and Case-by-case termination To arrive at favorable decisions later, the delay of the case is the aspirations and wishes of the suspects, who were discussed with the prosecutors through lawyers. And, as the data now available suggests, these are potentially criminal offenses.
– Prosecutors of the Prosecutor’s Department of the Prosecutor General Marcinkevičius and Vyčinas, Prosecutor of the 2nd Prosecutor’s Division of the Kaunas Puzinas Regional Prosecutor’s Office, Deputy Investigator of the FNTT Vilnius Regional Board six individuals. Looking at the cases in which these individuals have been involved, could you assess what damage has been done on the scale of the investigations, what the process will look like now, how many steps will you need to re-investigate those cases?
E. Pašilis: I think it would be impossible to calculate this quickly. Of course, it will take time for decisions to be reviewed, perhaps interrupted, delayed, suspended [bylos]where people are exempt from liability. We can count that damage directly, but it has caused enormous damage to the justice system itself. Apparently, I could briefly say that this is very serious damage. And it is unlikely that it will ever be valued for money.
– Mr. Bartkau, how do you think it is now possible to turn back time in those cases? Now I will mention just a few of them: the bankkio bankas case investigation team was led by Prosecutor Vyčinas, former managers of Vilniaus Energija, Litesko, Lietuvos Dujos and several VAT theft cases included in the case investigated by FNTT. lawsuits such as embezzlement of taxes when the company “Kauno grūdai” bought Polish sugar, etc. Several cases have not been investigated. What do you think is your destiny?
Ž. Bartkus The attorney general said the damage to justice had apparently already been done. Only so much that we can sit down and cry for the great damage, or we can say that it is an opportunity to investigate, evaluate typical situations in which there was a risk of corruption, review other situations, decisions that were outside the scope of our investigation and assess whether There are not the same risks. So I would say this is an opportunity. As mentioned, the quality of future financial investigations in pre-trial investigations will be more transparent and better. I think we should look to the future. That damage that is done now but will be clarified will bring benefits in the future.
– Mr. Bartkau, could this study be expanded? Many cases, more people involved, even more.
Ž. Bartkus Without a doubt, it can be expanded. As practice shows, during a pre-trial investigation, the investigation generally expands.
– Interrogating witnesses can make some of them suspicious, reveal new facts, etc., right? These people, who work as public officials, have been removed from office, their cases, as I understand it, transferred to others. How does the mechanism continue to work? What will the investigation of those cases be like next? The Ūkio bankas case is generally one of the most scandalous financial cases in three decades.
E. Pašilis: You mentioned the Ūkio bankas case, you are getting to know it, all processes must be carried out. We certainly cannot say that all the actions of these accused prosecutors are absolutely illegal. We certainly cannot underestimate its merits to the state in a few decades. But really, as mentioned, those potentially risky decisions that may seem like risk factors will be reviewed. And the processes have to continue. As I said, official inspections have many questions to answer, because prosecutors must be charged with the exact violations they may have committed.
– Mr. Unfortunately, you chaired the FNTT ten years ago. When he carried out the reorganizations, he said that for decades those involved in corruption schemes had been questioned. How do you think such schemes worked? Did you have any suspicions when you saw the current actions?
V. Gailio: Undoubtedly, this has led to a reform of the service, which has led to the creation of an immunity unit to get rid of such schemes and the people involved, the admission of new people, the creation of an anti-corruption system and the establishment of an anti-corruption unit. I would like to start by thanking the Attorney General for his courage, because we are talking about high-ranking officials who have investigated these cases, prosecutors who work for the Office of the Attorney General.
A special code of honor and courage was needed to decide whether to allow such prosecutors to be caught and attract the attention of this institution. So thanks to the Attorney General and STT chief for the professionalism shown once again. But investigations should not end only in repressive measures, but the system itself should be reviewed. The entire class of attorneys, the legal community, the transparent side of attorneys knew what had been going on at the FNTT since 2012, when former cadets and group members improved. In the regions, who were asked to become caregivers, caregivers, and managers of peculiar cases.
This is a lawyer. I would be wrong, but that lawyer probably once planned to go to the court hearing and did not go to it, I doubt he has a contract there. It would be wrong. Here we are talking about a certain mentality of Kaunas and a case manager in Kaunas, who has contacts in the previous service, who has the possibility of having certain confidential information. In fact, everyone knew it, except the head of the FNTT, who, before that, was probably supposed to know, because he himself could, in my opinion, be a supporter of that system.
Therefore, I think that we should also systematically analyze the problems of the prosecutor’s office, because the suspicions of prosecutors of this rank do not really leave aside the attention of the superior chiefs of these prosecutors, heads of departments and departments. Only in the context of passivity or participation could prosecutors be abused in this way. Why do they always find those cases with the same researchers? In fact, it shouldn’t end with a simple prosecution: a fundamental revision of the FNTT should be carried out so that we simply no longer have that corrupt system. Because all Kaunas and Vilnius know how things are handled in these divisions, not only the heads of these divisions know. That does not happen. I assure.
– You touched on very interesting topics, sorry. Prosecutor, let’s talk about another responsibility: controlling prosecutors, line managers.
E. Pašilis: I can say that, looking at previous official inspections, we have more than one case of prosecution and control. I cannot say what will happen in this situation, we cannot ignore it: there are official controls, both discretion and the presumption of innocence must be maintained. I really would not like to condemn yet. Apparently, if separate actions were taken, they were not done in an obvious way, more or less. Here we can only make assumptions so far.
As mentioned by the STT chief, in some cases there are also delayed processes, separate episodes and the expiration of the statute of limitations. And the managers themselves are not in a position to control just those investigations. Because, in principle, the role of the Attorney General in shaping uniform practice is very important. Jobs: endless and endless working groups. I really respect the people who are professionally dedicated to their work and work. Today I have no reason to distrust managers.
– Mr. Bartkau, do you see any signs of the system that Mr. Gailius was talking about: how did the same cases get to the same people, etc.?
Ž. Bartkus We are talking about pre-trial economic financial investigation cases, which are complex cases that require certain qualifications. There appears to be specialization both in the FNTT office and in the distribution of officers investigating what, as well as in the prosecution service: there are prosecutors who control precisely such cases. So, here, apparently, the task for the future, how to make that control work, how to guarantee rotation, is to redistribute, analyze the cases under investigation, maintain a clear vision of the ongoing relations between investigators, prosecutors and the risks that we see today
– Unfortunately, when it comes to Mr. Mickiewicz, whom you fired from a fairly high position in the FNTT, you mentioned that even the then Deputy Head of the Department of Homeland Security, Romualdas Vaišnoras, called you to ask Mickevičius to step down. What is the phenomenon here?
V. Gailio: Not only did he call, but he also came to me to ask that person to find a place in Kaunas. The phenomenon is the Minsk High School, and the former head of the FNTT, and Mr. Vaišnor, and the suspect he mentioned in this case are friends of science. And perhaps that unity of science has survived to this day. We somehow remain silent that the legal community, journalists, have been sending signals to FNTT leaders for a long time.
The same story of Romanov is the public announcement of how the flight to Russia was organized with the participation of the main leaders of the FNTT. As the suspicion procedure was performed, this is not the case. This is done only in coordination with the suspect or accused. The information was simply made public. But the FNTT does not see that. And somehow I don’t see a management response to those systemic issues that, thank goodness, were revealed by the STT. Thank you for your professionalism and for the courage of the Attorney General to speak on the issues. And the problems are really in the FNTT service, where almost 90s are back today.
– Do you think that about your old job? There are no representatives of that service here now, so perhaps we should put that issue aside. We could discuss this in isolation. Mr. Bartkau, have detainees been detained with any evidence, have specific sums of money been transferred here, things that are obvious?
Ž. Bartkus Operations and situations are different. There are small transactions in which, as you say, money is transferred and the recipient, usually the donor, is detained at the time of the transfer. And there are long-term studies. In this case, we are talking about a long-term investigation, where the evidence of a criminal act is kept for a long time. And if it is decided that it is sufficient to establish that criminal offenses have been committed, a pre-trial investigation is initiated and people are detained. So this operation is like this.
– So there are no direct physical clues here, understand? Is it about meetings, impact, some conversations that shouldn’t take place?
Ž. Bartkus The evidence varies. In this case, sufficient evidence has been gathered to argue that there are grounds to initiate a pre-trial investigation and arrest suspected criminals.
– Mr Pašili, do you consider that the evidence of what you know about the case is sufficient in light of the jurisprudence developed by the courts?
E. Pašilis: We believe it is sufficient to raise suspicions. They were brought. In fact, there would be a very high risk of bluffing and arresting officials to stop them without any consideration. As far as jurisprudence is concerned, we would consider, and it has been repeatedly argued, that the evidence assessment poster itself is very high. And international experts point this out: We still had the process of joining the OECD, and our criminal laws were also evaluated. But I certainly don’t think the allegations were made without a valid basis and without objective data. Incidentally, a crime is bribery. Again, we cannot name specific quantities, but there are some of the existing suspicions.
– Mr. Bartkau, on what the Attorney General said about the cartel’s high level of evidence, understands that he almost has to be caught with money on the other side, still with fingerprints, marked bills, etc. – Of course I am a cartoon. But you’ve been going through a variety of cases lately. Do you have many doubts about the success of this case, when looking at the jurisprudence?
Ž. Bartkus You see, the case law has not changed. This is not the case that was formed yesterday or a year ago, there has always been such jurisprudence and the jurisprudence dictates the requirements for pre-trial investigations. Consequently, pre-trial investigations are also determined by what the courts need to plead guilty. This case was no exception: evidence was gathered in accordance with jurisprudence and the case is currently being prepared in such a way as to provide the courts with sufficient material to plead guilty.
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