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May 9, 07:52
Photo courtesy of the Ukrainian Institute of National Remembrance.
Wehrmacht soldiers pass near the roadside sign in the Lviv region, September 1939
Sergey Gromenko, candidate for historical sciences, in an interview with HB spoke about historical myths World War II, its threat to modern Ukraine and the ability to get rid of them.
About 40% of Ukrainians believe that in May it is worth celebrating Remembrance and Reconciliation Day on May 8, and Victory over Nazism Day – May 9. Such data from a sociological study this week was published by the Ilk Kucheriv Foundation for Democratic Initiatives.
Sociologists and historians explain the attraction for May 9 for the force of the habits acquired during the Soviet Union, as well as for the historical myths about the Second World War.
Radio HB discussed this with historian Sergei Gromenko.
– Name the three main myths about World War II, which continue to significantly affect public consciousness in Ukraine even now.
– First there is the myth that in general there is a kind of Great Patriotic War. It was extremely important for the Soviet Union not to present itself as an aggressor. The truth cannot be hidden, from 1939 to mid-1941 and in the second half of 1945, the behavior of the Soviet Union was equated with the actions of a typical aggressor: he, along with Nazi Germany, started the war in Europe with an attack against Poland, Finland, the Baltic and finally Romania; and in the second half of 1945 – to Japan.
And to somehow avoid this inconvenience, I had to cross out the first two years of the war and the last six months, and what was left, to make such an ideological construction, a kind of Great Patriotic War of the Soviet people. The Russian authorities follow this model of Soviet behavior, calling themselves world champions, restorers of justice.
Second in the ranking of Ukraine, I would put the myth that only the Soviet army waged a holy war against Nazi Germany, and all who were not with the Red Army: all traitors, collaborators, deviants, and generally just bad people. This myth is dangerous for Ukraine for the same reasons of current ideological manipulation, because it represents the Ukrainian national liberation movement as Nazi collaborators and enemies of the free world. There are knights in shining armor, the Soviet Red Army, carrying out their so-called holy fight. And everyone who is not with her is on the black side.
Because of this, Ukrainians are accused of the fact that in 2014 there was a Nazi coup, a fascist junta allegedly took power. East “the fascist junta mocked the residents of the Crimea and Donbass. “With this myth, Muscovy locks up his aggression in the Donbass.
And the myth that all Crimean Tatars are deserters, collaborators, and their deportation was fair retribution, ranks third in danger for Ukraine. About the Crimean Tatars in Muscovy they still say it. For Ukraine, unfortunately, “metastasis” is dangerous since it allows to fuel the Slavic-Turkish confrontation, which only contributes to a division in the Ukrainian policy regarding Crimea.
– Why are Soviet myths about World War II in Ukraine still alive and who feeds them the most?
– These are politicians, the communists still continue to cling to these outdated Soviet narratives, this is their core. If this pivot of Soviet mythology does not exist, then there will be no communism in Ukraine. The second category of politicians are pro-Russian politicians. Therefore, Russia constantly remembers that it is a victorious country, victory is supposedly something sacred and no one can invade it, except for some henchmen of Satan. Consequently, the pro-Russian forces in Ukraine are also guided by all these narratives.
It wouldn’t be a big surprise to point out the so-called Opposition platform, which stated that despite the quarantine, it would still hold a parade on May 9. If communism naturally sinks into oblivion, the pro-Moskovite forces remain, and while Russia, for its part, feeds these myths, the pro-Russian enemy forces will also pass them on. The Servant of the People also has a certain group of deputies who periodically transmit the same Russian, Soviet communist myths, and do not criticize them at all.
– You claimed that historical myths are the same weapons as bullets in conventional warfare. And if the Ukrainians do not have their own weapons, they will suffer from this. That is, we have to formulate new myths, but already from Ukraine about the Second World War. So how do we differ from the Soviet Union?
“We must not compose our own myths in Ukraine to fight Russian myths.” We in Ukraine must form Ukrainian narratives to fight against the Moscow narratives. And here we are not talking about a distortion of historical truth, we are not talking about a distortion of facts. Our fight must be at the level of interpretation.
If the Russians say that, they say, Bandera are all collaborators, enemies of the Soviet regime, then we say this: they are enemies of the Soviet regime, because it is a fact, but they are not collaborators, because the fight for a free Ukraine does not automatically mean that we must speak on the same side as the Germans.
Yes, there were cooperative acts with the Germans, but there were also battles with the Germans, and this should be included in a broader context, because the stateless peoples of Eastern Europe saw exactly such a situation. If the Ukrainian politicum, the Ukrainian elites will not fight for their Ukrainian narratives, then sooner or later foreign narratives will be forced on us.
– And what can protect us as a nation from “falling” into the modern myths of Ukraine that, for example, Charles de Gaulle wanted to have an army like the UPA, or Che Guevara admired the resistance of the Ukrainian rebels?
– The lighting. The problem with these myths, why they appear at all, is that it seems to the Ukrainian ultra patriots that the Ukrainian state is not struggling enough with Russian narratives, with Russian myths. So the state just needs to do everything, reformatting the Great Patriotic War Museum into the WWII Museum. If this were done in 1991, we would live in another country.
The Ukrainian state must fight these narratives at the state, national level, support book publishing, organize exhibitions and produce films. A Haytarma film did more to dispel myths about Crimean Tatars than all the articles written by scientists, including me, taken together in recent years.
– In a way, the embodiment of historical myths about World War II can be seen in some monuments and monuments. Sometimes there are rumors even about the demolition of the sculpture of the Motherland in Kiev. What to do with the monuments associated with World War II?
– Monument to the monument – discord. There are standard monuments for fallen soldiers, and if they are in certain designated areas for this, in cemeteries or very conditionally in places of great battles, then all is well. It is true that there are isolated monuments that cause controversy. In each case, you must understand what to do with them and how.
As for the Homeland, is Ukraine a free country? We have different opinions. Including hearing the voice of those who say that “scarecrow ”must be demolished. I am not absolutely thrilled with such radical thinking. The only thing connecting this monument to the Soviet Union is the coat of arms on the shield. Dismantling the coat of arms from the shield of the Motherland will convert the entire sculpture of a communist into a sculpture.
The situation with, for example, the Vatutin monument is much more complicated. There is also a tomb, and now, finally, a petition is signed on the transfer of this monument. The disputes over how to relate to him should not overshadow the fact that the tomb is in the center of the Ukrainian capital. And really, why? This is not the grave of some prominent Ukrainian military or political figure. The place of Vatutin’s grave is in a military cemetery. And perhaps it is quite obvious to move this monument there, to the grave. In my opinion, this is the least evil of all possible.
For example, in Tallinn, Estonia, there was a monument to Soviet soldiers, it was demolished, transferred, albeit with scandals, to a military cemetery. If nothing is done, sooner or later the Ukrainian radicals will be brought down and dismantled in some barbaric way. This will cause further discord in Ukrainian society.
– Fight myths about World War II: is it still an endless fight, or can we have some kind of timeline?
– Definitely for another 25-30 years, at least until the centenary of the end of the Second World War, there will be myths that will actively influence the political alignment. If Russia stops following its chlorination policy, the policy “Victory” then perhaps we will be allowed sooner.
