Tomás Venclova: “Consciousness is above independence” Culture

1975 T. Venclova wrote the very open “Open Letter” to the Central Committee of the Communist Party. joined the Lithuanian group from Helsinki. 1977 went to the USA, where he received political asylum and worked in higher education: T. Venclova taught at Yale University for three decades.

After spending forty years in exile, the professor returned to Vilnius in 2018, where he actively participates in Lithuania’s cultural life and boldly expresses his opinion on the most important issues for the country and the world. 15 minutes with T. Venclova he discussed the meaning of independence, the principles of liberalism, historical memory, national minorities and other topics.

– 2020 brought some special anniversaries to Lithuania. One of them is thirty years of independence. What does this mean for you? What feelings do you arouse?

– It means a lot. Probably like all the inhabitants of Lithuania. When I emigrated, I was convinced that I would not see the collapse of the Soviet Union, but I did it unexpectedly. I thought I would never return to Lithuania; I would never see her or my loved ones again. But I started visiting Lithuania, I also met people close to me.

I do not think it is necessary to demonstrate that the current situation is incomparably better in all aspects than it was. Also better than in the pre-war period. Lithuania is now much safer, and then surrounded by extremely predatory neighbors. Today, maybe one of them stayed, and then we had at least three.

I thought I would never return to Lithuania; I would never see her or my loved ones again.

From an economic point of view, it is also better. Today, people are richer, even those who suffer or consider themselves that way. See how the streets look, how many cars we have, like dressed passersby. How many of them have bought the latest smartphones and are going on vacation to Turkey or the Canary Islands? We haven’t seen anything like it in the sour cream years and it’s even hard to imagine.

Better and culturally. We better understand the principles of cultural diversity and its coexistence. The value of our current literature, art and music will become clear only after about 50 years, but I think we have many valuable things.

– This year has also been declared the Year of Vilnius Gaon and Lithuanian Jewish History. In your opinion, do Lithuanians understand and appreciate Jewish heritage? How should we honor these people? Perhaps the Great Synagogue should be rebuilt or a museum of modern Jewish history created?

– In this sense, I think we are also better than a few years ago, without mentioning previous periods. I am thinking not only of the Jews, but also of other national minorities: Poles, Russians, Belarusians, Karaites, Tatars.

In general, there is a lot of latent mistrust towards minorities in Lithuania.

I will mention another minority that I have had to worry about lately: the Roma (Gypsies). A large part of Lithuanian society is anti-them, it is meaningless and unnecessary, it is necessary to correct that situation.

In general, there is a lot of latent mistrust towards minorities in Lithuania. When there are Poles. “The Poles will never forget Vilnius and will definitely try to get him back,” this is, so to speak, the universal wisdom of the people. A large number of people believe in this, and unfortunately modern Poland provides a basis for this: far-right demonstrations and parades are held in Warsaw, where there is much talk about Vilnius, about Lviv.

Although this is not the policy of the Polish state. As long as Poland is a member of NATO and the EU, it cannot be an element of that policy. But anxiety still arises, I understand, because I also sympathize with the extreme right in Poland. It is true that they are not understanding and are a large part of the Poles. We will see how these things develop. But we are moving away from the Jewish question.

– Nutolome. Although very interesting what you are saying.

– We have very few Jews at the moment. Although there are significant and influential people among them. Sometimes it is difficult to say whether a person must necessarily be called a Jew; Perhaps it is more of Lithuanian origin than Jewish origin. One of them was Leonidas Donskis. Unfortunately, he is no longer alive. By the way, this is also Irena Veisaitė. If we think about it, we will discover at least some smaller ones.

Without mentioning the Jews, we cannot objectively discuss our history.

All of these people have a positive impact on our culture and our daily life, but few of them. The number of people killed during World War II is incomparably higher. Lithuania’s appearance can be said to have changed as a result.

– And how should the legacy of this disappeared minority be commemorated?

– Of course, it has to be done. Here is our moral duty. Without mentioning the Jews, we cannot objectively discuss our history. My own position would be that if we could rebuild the Palace of the Rulers, we could have the Great Synagogue.

It would decorate Vilnius as the Palace of the Rulers now adorns the city. By the way, I was against them once, but now I am not anymore. I think they are necessary for Vilnius and they play an important role. The same could be true with the Great Synagogue.

Vilnius is no less the center of the Jewish community than Warsaw or Berlin.

There is a large-scale Jewish museum in Berlin; no less significant museum in Warsaw. Also in Prague, although there it existed a little earlier. Vilnius is no less the center of the Jewish community than Warsaw or Berlin. And it deserves a museum of the same scale.

And, it seems to me, the two things could be combined in some way. The synagogue could be rebuilt in nature purely museum. Although, if there were people who wanted it and were determined to do it, sometimes it could be used for worship. Even not necessarily local, but also foreign guests and tourists could meet in them.

As much visual material has survived, it would be easier to rebuild the Synagogue than the Palace of the Rulers. Even the scale is smaller. I think some funds may come up. The support of the global Jewish community must also be taken into account. And there could be a serious Jewish museum next door or in the synagogue itself. In my opinion, this is the task of our future and sooner or later it must be implemented in Vilnius.

Of course, there is another position that says that only the sign that they were here should be left in the place of the Synagogue. Well, as the Jewish community itself will decide, it will. But he would be in favor of rebuilding the building, as this would make Vilnius more interesting.

– Historical themes often have highly controversial angles. Probably one of the best examples of this is the conflict over Kazys Škirpa Avenue and the General Storm Memorial Board, which was widely discussed last summer. The alley name was changed and the board was scandalously broken. Although it was decided not to return it, during a meeting of those who were not satisfied with this verdict, they hung it again, true, new. And how did this whole situation turn out for you? What principles should be followed to resolve such disagreements?

– This situation is not an honor for present-day Lithuania. At the moment, the problem appears to be frozen, but it is unclear how long it will be able to continue. I have repeatedly expressed my position on this matter. In my opinion, there can be no doubt about Kazys Škirpa.

I will read to you from the second volume of my book (Tomás Venclova, “History of Lithuania for all. Volume II”, – aut. Note) Letter from Kazys Škirpa to Antanas Smetonas at the beginning of World War II. This letter has been published, published, but very few people know it, not all read the professional books of historians, although they are always required to speak, they hear, without their authorized word, the problems of historical memory cannot be solved.

It seems to me that this letter cannot be silenced, it is worth quoting it more often. This is what Škirpa writes: “It does not matter what the name of the party that would proclaim Hitler’s follower is called in Lithuanian. Maybe activists, maybe differently. The principle of the leader and the disposition of society with the laws of National Socialism (in other words, the laws of Nazism are important – Commentary by T. Venclova) […]. All Lithuanian parties must disappear, because they have all been compromised, and a new, young and courageous Lithuanian National Socialist Party led by a leader will find a fragment of them. “

– Hmm, I’ve never heard of that either.

– It is a fact that few people in Lithuania have heard it. But from this, it is clear from the day that Skirpa was a follower of Hitler and openly said so. He created the activist party, organized according to the principles of Nazism, and left it with that name (Front of Lithuanian activists, LAF).

I could not and could not live in Lithuania as independent as I could not and did not want to live in Soviet Lithuania.

If we have the street that bears his name, it means that we have the street of a follower of Hitler. In other words, we sign that independent Lithuania respects and supports Hitler’s followers. In today’s world, this looks completely outrageous.

– Bet …

– But they will answer me soon – Škirpa defended the independence of Lithuania.

– yeah

– yeah But he was in favor of a Lithuania so independent that it would sign according to Hitler’s doctrine. Such an independent Lithuania is not for me. I could not and could not live in Lithuania as independent as I could not and did not want to live in Soviet Lithuania.

He tells me: Škirpa was a Nazi intern. I was. However, totalitarian regimes not only often imprison or support their supporters, but also shoot them. Suppose Stalin shot Zigmas Aleksa-Angarietis, a Stalinist. And that does not mean that he is no longer a Stalinist.

Scorpion, unlike the Hangar, was not shot. They kept him in comfortable condition at some hotel and even released him after that. He could keep trying to influence the Germans; while in Berlin he sometimes achieved his goals.

After the war, he lived in Ireland, a country where many Nazis hid. Later, he managed to get to America: Here, apparently, he (like Juozas Ambrazevičius-Brazaitis) proved useful to American intelligence in one way or another. Clearly, it is a matter of American intelligence, although I do not find it comprehensive. In a word, there is nothing more to say about Scorpio.

Of course, there is one thing you did not agree with the German Nazis. The Germans thought that there was only one nation of knights: the German nation. According to Škirpa, at least two are Germans and Lithuanians. Anyway, the Nazi doctrine is correct, but incorrect in this regard.

So Škirpa is a Nazi, but not a German, but a Lithuanian (so he got a little trapped by the German Nazis). I don’t understand why Lithuanian Nazi is better than German. The dispute here takes place between the initiates. For me, the Lithuanian Nazi is somewhat more understanding because it destroys the good name of Lithuania.

I don’t understand why Lithuanian Nazi is better than German.

Again, it is said, but after all Škirpa was the first to raise a tricolor over Gediminas castle. Yes, get up. But it is silent (and Škirpa himself was silent) that this was done by order of Liudas Gira, the Vilna military commander. So the street that is now called Trispalvės Alley (and with good reason) could be called Kazio Škirpa and Liudo Giros.

Apparently, there will be no Gira supporters, but Škirpa deserves such a designation as much as Gira. They were both Lithuanian patriots at the time, but then they both went the wrong way, albeit in the opposite direction.

– What about the General Storm case?

– There is a group of people who only get three to four percent of the vote when they go to the polls. But they are very loud. After all, although not always in public, they are supported by some of the strongest political forces that get significantly more votes. It’s probably a factor in why they’re doing so badly.

Noreika (John Noreika-General Storm, – aut. Note) The new board was arbitrarily nailed, since it violates the Vilnius municipality resolution, which has not been revoked and, in my opinion, will not. There is a fine for that, and sum summary the board, I think, will still have to be removed. When and how, I don’t know.

Noreika’s situation is a little more confusing than Škirpa’s. You may not know everything about him, I have not specifically studied his biography. In addition, she collaborated with my older friend Ona Lukauskaitė-Poškienė, a founding member of the Helsinki Group, whom I greatly respect.

Although we can still deconstruct this case in a similar way. Sitting at Stuthof? He was sitting. But he sat down and even killed Štuthofe and Pranas Germantas-Meškauskas, who was 100% Nazi, only Lithuanian, like Škirpa. Shot by the Soviets? Shooting.

Whether we like it or not, but not all the men punished by the Soviets were innocent and can be considered sacred. Yes, many were innocent, really many. But there were also culprits. Finally, the Soviets also fired on General Petras Kubiliūnas, whom not even our rightists adore and justify too much.

At the beginning of the war, I really don’t know how much General Storm (he declared himself general, nobody gave him that degree; now it is accepted to call him one way or another) at the beginning of the war. But if there is any doubt, then, in my opinion, the boards should not be. And there really are doubts. One more thing I will say … Will not the language come out for a long time here?

Whether we like it or not, but not all the men punished by the Soviets were innocent and can be considered sacred.

– Everything is fine. Please continue.

– I would like to say this about the current partisan cult. In the army, at school, people are educated in such a way that, faced with danger, they fight as the partisans did. Basically this is absolutely true.

But it must be remembered that any partisan movement in any state, under any circumstances, is always a cruel phenomenon. Partisanship often violates the laws of humanity, more often than at the front.

An Irish independence fighter (the Irish, by the way, fought heroically and hard for Independence; he finally recovered, the Tatas allow us to see many parallels with Lithuania) once said that there are things that cannot be done even for the nation survive. For example, children should not be killed. And such cases, unfortunately, have existed.

Partisanship often violates the laws of humanity, more often than at the front.

Or, let’s say, another example. Recently, I think I had to read about Vaclovas Voveris, nicknamed Žaibas, in the Respublika newspaper. His greatest feat was that he exploited a house of culture where collaborators and their families held a dance night.

Whether the collaborator and what was not, was decided by Squirrel-Lightning himself. No court would say whether these people, especially their relatives, deserved the death penalty.

Of course, everything happens in a war, but we have to argue. I understand, we can say that it is shameless to organize dance nights at that time: Lithuania must cry and cry, understanding its tragic situation. This is probably true. But does that require killing? I really doubt it.

In this way, you can get to the point where you will blow up the beach at Lukiškės Square with all its visitors.

Furthermore, can this really be considered a positive example? In this way, you can get to the point where you will blow up the beach at Lukiškės Square with all its visitors.

In Lithuania, the position of many is that if a person is in favor of Independence, especially if he dies because of it, then everything can be forgiven. It can kill a pregnant woman or shoot unarmed. You can publish an anti-Semitic program, but the most important thing is that you were in favor of independence. Not!

Independence is not the highest thing in the world. There is one taller than her: God. And if we are not believers, we can say “humanity” or “conscience” instead of “God”. If the question of independence conflicts with the question of humanity, it would be in favor of the question of humanity.

– Wow! Few could say so boldly.

– Okay, yes. No one talks like that. Many silently believe that independence and humanity always coincide. It would be great if that was the case, and it generally is, but unfortunately not always. I will tell you a short story. Kazys Saja once came to me. Do you know Kazis Saja?

– Of course.

“He said, ‘Tom, what did you start talking about here? “I say,” Kazy, would you kill a man for Lithuania? – I replied. That is the difference between us. For me, killing is unacceptable at all.

– I would also like to ask about the Lithuanian Polish minority. As can be seen from his previous speeches, he supported the idea of ​​the right to write personal names in documents based on the Latin alphabet. However, critics would say that allowing this would soon add to the claims of those who wish to write the names in Cyrillic or hieroglyphics. There are still those who believe that such a right would pave the way for the aspirations of Polish autonomy. How do you evaluate these circumstances?

– When it comes to Cyrillic or hieroglyphs, this is a controversial exaggeration. In fact, I don’t care. Poles are feared to demand autonomy. First, it is not required at this time. And if you ask, it will be a completely different matter.

– We had a case in the past.

– We had, but he left. The Polish authorities did not support this then or now, which is important. Finally, the Basques in Spain have linguistic autonomy. And that? Spain lost it?

If those letters were introduced, nothing terrible would happen: the annoying problem, which damages relations inside and outside Lithuania, would disappear.

As for the letters, it is the stupid and absurd stubbornness of many of our linguists, the seymons, of much of society. In my opinion, these views are anachronistic and are no longer adequate for the current European state. If those letters were introduced, nothing terrible would happen: the annoying problem, which damages relations inside and outside Lithuania, would disappear.

In my opinion, it would also be possible to write place names in Polish speaking areas in two languages. In Seinai, Punsk region, this is the case, in eight or nine villages. I have seen Polish and Lithuanian inscriptions there with my own eyes, which is very good, it shows the diversity of the country. Polish nationalists don’t like it, but they don’t have a decisive voice, at least as far as I know.

Finally, on the way to Telšiai, we see that the road has the names “Telšiai” and “Telšē”. Is it possible for the Samogitians and not for the Poles? The argument that this will violate Lithuania’s most sacred rights and destroy our national identity is idiocy.

“Aušra” is written in Polish with all those letters and gave birth to our national identity, not destroyed it. You could also say that Poland is a much bigger country, so its language is dangerous for Lithuanians. In the Tsarist era, perhaps before the war, that was the case, but certainly not now. It is time for me to address this issue, although I have almost given up hope.

“Aušra” is written in Polish with all those letters and gave birth to our national identity, not destroyed it.

– Well, most people, as you mentioned, are convinced that the state language is Lithuanian. And at that point he makes a point.

– God forbid, the language of the state in Poland is Polish, but they have Lithuanian signs. Legal issues do not depend on the size of the community. Equality and the principles of equality must apply to everyone, big and small.

I mentioned that there are Basques in Spain. The Basques, who behaved much more radically than our Poles. At first, our Poles tried to declare autonomy, and the Basques engaged in terror, dropping bombs, shooting, and carrying out assassinations for many years.

But in Spain there is now an area where Basque bilingual names are allowed. For example, Pamplona in Spanish and adjacent to Iruñea in Basque. Did something terrible happen? On the contrary. The Basques have calmed down, the terror has ended and the situation in Spain has improved enormously.

At first, our Poles tried to declare autonomy, and the Basques engaged in terror, dropping bombs, shooting, and carrying out assassinations for many years.

– You have a special connection with Krakow, you are an honorary doctor of the Jagiellonian University. Last year, I had to study at this university for one semester. I was constantly surprised to rediscover how much and how deeply we are connected to Poland. And, in your opinion, is Lithuanian society sufficiently aware of the historical-cultural relationship with this state? What beautifully agreed obstructive myths surround our common past?

– When you go to Wawel and see Jogaila’s tombstone, it is the most beautiful tombstone ever built for any Lithuanian, you think we have really left a significant mark on the history of Poland. The times of old Lithuania are still here, but new ones are also happening.

Let’s say there is a house on the Krakow Main Market Square, where the Lithuanian Society operated before Lithuania’s independence, Herbačiauskas worked (Juozapas Albinas Herbačiauskas – one of the first essays on Lithuanian literature, worked and lived in Poland for many years, died in Krakow, – aut. Note), sculptor Rimša (Petras Rimša – Lithuanian sculptor, graphic artist, studied at the Cracow Academy of Arts, – aut. Note) and another.

There really is a lot of Lithuanian heritage there and it somehow unites us. If there is a lot of Polish in Vilnius, then in Krakow it is Lithuanian.

We would also find him in Warsaw, not to mention the Sejm, who are almost half Lithuanian; It turned out that they now pay taxes not to Vilnius, but to Warsaw. This is the only serious difference, since now there are no barriers to enter the Sejm. You can speak Lithuanian there freely and no one will try to hit you for it. At least I speak Lithuanian there and have never had any negative reaction.

Therefore, if Seina belongs to Lithuania it is not that important. Although perhaps I would be happier to belong. When I see the wonderful Lake Wigry with an incredibly beautiful monastery, my heart sometimes breaks: “Oh, what lands we have lost.” We lost it, we smiled.

In fact, this is what we have lost a lot: Lida, Polotsk, Grodno. And that? And nothing, we continue living. The Poles lost to Vilnius and Lviv. And it lives. The Germans lost Danzig, Stetin, Breslau, Strasbourg and lived. Live better than before the war: the world probably has more weight.

Is that why we still have problems with Poland? Because the fear of Lucian Zheligowski remains in the subconscious. She turns on again and again. Title: “Pilsudski’s Polish Terror in Vilnius”. Terror? There were many Lithuanian schools, which did not decrease much until Juzef Pilsudski’s death. There were kindergartens, there was a press. Terror is a situation in which people are imprisoned en masse, especially en masse, especially after being shot.

New times have come and the cry “we will not calm down without Vilnius”, having that Vilnius in my hands is, in my opinion, idiotic.

They fired, who was declared a Lithuanian spy. However, Polish spies were also found in Lithuania, and were also not webbed. Espionage comes naturally in the relationships of all states, especially during the Cold War. And there was such a state of the Cold War between us.

The Poles are more to blame in this regard, but it is absolutely useless to remember that forever and blow the danger. New times have come and the cry “we will not calm down without Vilnius”, having that Vilnius in my hands is, in my opinion, idiotic.

– It is interesting that you are a person with two citizens, Lithuanian and American. Even in his famous essay “I suffocate” he mentioned that Lithuania should “solve this problem wisely”. So what would be such a smart solution according to you?

– Let’s take Poland itself as an example. Polish citizenship cannot be stopped: wherever you go, no matter how you behave, even if you become a Polish enemy, a criminal Polish citizen, you will remain a Polish citizen.

All Polish dissidents who fled Communist Poland remained Polish citizens. Even the communist government could not deprive that citizenship. There was no such law. Meanwhile, the Soviets could. The Soviets deprived me of my citizenship, and thank God. I did not skimp too much, and received independent Lithuanian citizenship from Stasys Lozoraitis, of which I was very proud.

I have both nationalities and I don’t mean to give up either.

And then I got U.S. citizenship. Americans look at those things more or less with their fingers crossed: America can have dual citizenship, and no one will sue for it.

I have both nationalities and I don’t mean to give up either. But closer and more important to me is Lithuanian citizenship. Only because I actively vote in Lithuania and not always in the United States. I voted in the United States during the Barack Obama and Donald Trump presidential elections.

In the first case, I voted for Obama because I think it is extremely important that the United States finally have a black president. And it was not that bad. And Short seemed to me that the United States would be detrimental and I voted against him for Hillary Clinton. I also thought that as a black man, a woman should become president of the United States. But that did not happen. If I need to vote for the Short a second time, I will not vote either.

– How has American life changed since Donald Trump became president? Do you think he also has a chance to be elected to a second term?

– Unfortunately, I think he will be chosen. If not, it would be a nice surprise for me. But, as I said, I think it will be, because the economic situation in the United States is still good and the economy largely decides: if a person lives well, they will generally vote for the president they lived well with.

In global politics, Trump did not make much progress. I would say that it is leading the United States into a senseless isolationist position. And there are a lot of Trump fans in Lithuania: I see it in the media and elsewhere. I’m not that fanatic at all. I think he is not ready for the role of president and his government will not benefit the United States.

Unfortunately, I think it will be chosen. If not, it would be a nice surprise for me.

– And what reactions have you noticed to the Americans regarding the declarations or decisions of President Trump?

– Americans are very diverse. Let’s say Yummy University, where I worked, was covered in posters after Trump’s victory: “The Yale University Revolutionary Committee is calling for a fight against Trump.” The committees did exist, by the way, but they accomplished nothing.

Of course, there are many Americans (intellectuals, citizens, students) who oppose Trump. But it is supported by population groups in the American province. They are strong, they outshine the left in New York and California, and they speak their word. But I don’t think your word promises anything good for America.

Others say that the left does not promise anything good either. But the left is very different. For me personally, the left is more understandable than the right. There is a good saying: “He who did not stay in his youth has no heart. Quien haya permanecido abandonado toda su vida no tiene cerebro “. Hay algo de verdad en ese dicho, pero no vale la pena temer demasiado a la izquierda: a menudo se basa en el deseo del corazón de los jóvenes.

– Tú mismo declaras que eres un hombre liberal. ¿Actualmente encuentra políticos en el campo político lituano que puedan representar sus creencias? ¿Quizás podría hablar sobre los principios de su liberalismo en general?

– Mis puntos de vista liberales se definen de manera muy simple: vive y deja que otros vivan. Intenta no restringir nada demasiado.

– Libertad negativa?

– Tal vez.

– ¿Y los políticos?

– Realmente esperaba que el presidente Gitanas Nausėda fuera un político acorde con mis puntos de vista. Sin embargo, no todo lo que Nausėda está haciendo está a la altura de las esperanzas que tenía.

Sin lugar a dudas, el político que representa mis puntos de vista fue el presidente Valdas Adamkus. También voté por Nausėda en parte porque Adamkus lo apoyó. Pensé que esta sería una línea sólida: Kazys Grinius, Valdas Adamkus, Gitanas Nausėda. Parece ser solo parcialmente.

Mis puntos de vista liberales se definen de manera muy simple: vivir y dejar que otros vivan.

Adamkus, mano galva, apskritai buvo geriausias prezidentas, kokį Lietuva kada nors yra turėjusi. Tačiau lengva būti geru prezidentu, kai konkurentai ne itin patrauklūs (šypsosi). Dar mano pažiūras atitiko Leonidas Donskis, tik nesu tikras, ar jį galima pavadinti politiku.

– Nors jis daugiausia reiškėsi kaip viešasis intelektualas, tačiau politinėje veikloje taip pat dalyvavo. Todėl turbūt galima.

– Gerai. Tad jeigu mes jį politiku pavadinti galime, tai su juo aš sutikdavau beveik šimtu procentų. Nebent mažiau piktinausi politiniu korektiškumu, kurį laikau pirmiausia takto reikalu.

Kodėl svarbu vartoti vienokį žodį vietoj kitokio? Ne „negras“, o „juodaodis“? Todėl, kad „negras“ iškart primena apie vergijos laikus ir į tai atsižvelgti reikia. Amerikoje tai skamba kaip pas mus „žydpalaikis“, „žydelka“, „lenkiūkštis“ ar „ruselis“ – padorūs žmonės tokių žodžių nevartoja.

Tad nesu didelis politinio korektiškumo priešininkas, nors tokių Lietuvoje yra daug. Gal kartais tas korektiškumas ir perdedamas, bet neseniai pasklidusios šnekos, kad pavyzdžiui, baltosios moterys verčiamos bučiuoti juodaodžių vyrų batus, manding, yra piktybiškas prasimanymas.

Dažnas lietuvis tėvynėje arba emigracijoje pridaro dalykų, ligi kurių azijiečiui ar afrikiečiui toli šaukia.

Taip pat žymiai perdedami gandai apie juodaodžių arba arabų nusikaltimus. Čia derėtų, kaip sakoma pasakėčioje, pažvelgti į save. Dažnas lietuvis tėvynėje arba emigracijoje pridaro dalykų, ligi kurių azijiečiui ar afrikiečiui toli šaukia.

– Galbūt jau turite nuomonę apie sąlyginai naujai susikūrusią Laisvės partiją?

– Dar mažokai apie ją žinau. Buvau kviestas į renginį, kai Aušrinė Armonaitė rengė referendumą dėl pilietybės. Kadangi mūsų pažiūros daugmaž sutapo – aš pasisakau už dvigubą pilietybę ir tai, kad ši teisė būtų kiek įmanoma mažiau varžoma – dalyvauti sutikau. Gal jūs irgi ten buvote?

– Ne, nebuvau.

– Ir gerai (juokiasi). Man pasitaikė nesėkminga diena – likau nepatenkintas savo pasisakymu. Tačiau ten dalyvavau ir tam reikalui pritariau. Bet, vėlgi, per mažai apie tą partiją žinau, kad galėčiau tvirtai pasakyti, jog esu jos sąjungininkas. Iš viso vengiu būti bet kurios partijos sąjungininku, nors kai kurioms labiau simpatizuoju, negu kitoms.

Jeigu mes nevaržome strazdanotųjų teisių, negalime varžyti ir homoseksualistų.

– Smalsu jūsų pasiteirauti ir dėl homoseksualų santuokų arba partnerysčių Lietuvoje įteisinimo. Ką apie tai manote ir kaip Lietuvai derėtų su tuo tvarkytis?

– Čia visad mėgstu pacituoti savo bičiulį Adamą Michniką: „Prieš homoseksualistus aš nieko neturiu, bet jų nesuprantu; užtat suprantu lesbietes, nes man irgi moterys patinka.“ Ir aš galiu pasakyti, jog lesbietės man savo pažiūromis artimesnės, o gėjai nuo manęs skiriasi, nes vyrai kaip partneriai manęs nedomina.

Bet galėjau gimti ir taip, kad būtų dominę. Tokių, kiek žinau, yra apie septynis procentus pasaulio žmonių. Ir tai nelabai priklauso nei nuo tautybės, nei nuo valstybės. Taip pat kaip yra septyni procentai strazdanotų.

Jeigu mes nevaržome strazdanotųjų teisių, negalime varžyti ir homoseksualistų. Juk tai neužkrečiama, tai nėra yda – nors Bažnyčia tai laiko nuodėme.

– Net dabartinis popiežius yra pasakęs – kas aš toks, kad teisčiau.

– Dabartinio popiežiaus pozicija man labai artima. Konservatyvesniems katalikams neartima, o man kaip tik artima. Galiu papasakoti vieną gražią istoriją, jei galima?

– Žinoma.

– Czeslawas Miloszas turėjo audienciją pas popiežių Joną Paulių II-ąjį. Czeslawo sūnus buvo tipingas amerikoniškas kairiokas hipis. Sėdėjo jie visi prie stalo ir jis išrėžė: „Jūsų Šventenybe, jaunimo vardu privalau pasakyti, kad Jūsų seksualinė politika yra klaidinga.“

Į tai popiežius atsakė: „Čia labai sudėtingi dalykai. Tarp kitko, ar jūs vedęs?“ Hipis patikino: „Ne.“ Popiežius pridūrė: „Aš irgi ne.“ Tad į tuos reikalus verta pažiūrėti ir su humoru.

– Tikrai smagi istorija!

– Aš, beje, nebijau jokio genderizmo. Turbūt reiktų sakyti „dženderizmas“, bet Lietuvoje girdėjau sakant „genderizmas“. Kas tai yra? Tai yra pripažinimas, jog lytiniai vaidmenys ne tik įgimti, bet ir socialiai sukonstruoti.

Jeigu tu manai, kad mergaitė nuo vaikystės ar dar net embriono būsenos turi būti vienokia ir turi turėti elgsenos bruožų, kurių neturi ir negali turėti berniukas, tai irgi sukuria lyčių skirtumą.

O pasaulis yra įvairus. Žmogaus seksualinis gyvenimas ir jo seksualinė tapatybė yra daug sudėtingesnė negu mums dažnai atrodo. Apie tai žino psichologai, daug – ir ne visada klaidingai – kalbėjo froidistai. Čia turime daugybę įvairių atvejų, į kuriuos reikia atsižvelgti taip, jog tai būtų žmogiška – kad nekeltų didelių konfliktų ir neardytų žmogaus teisių.

Žmogaus seksualinis gyvenimas ir jo seksualinė tapatybė yra daug sudėtingesnė negu mums dažnai atrodo.

Jeigu suaugęs homoseksualistas prievartauja vaiką, kuris negali pasipriešinti arba nesutikti – visiškai nesvarbu, ar tai homoseksualistas, prievartaujantis berniuką, ar heteroseksualistas, prievartaujantis mergaitę – tai vienodai baustinas dalykas.

O jei tai suaugę žmonės, kurie sutinka būti partneriais – mano galva, tą turime laikyti tik jų reikalu ir į tai nesikišti.

– O ką tuomet manote apie įvaikinimą?

– Manau, kad įvaikinimas neturėtų būti draudžiamas. Nors čia irgi gali būti įvairių atvejų. Įsivaizduokime, kad įrodyta: tam tik tikras personažas turi pedofiliškų polinkių – vis vien, ar jis homoseksualus, ar heteroseksualus, ar nori įvaikinti berniuką, ar mergaitę.

Tuomet įvaikinimas turėtų būti uždraustas – bet tik tokiomis aplinkybėmis. O apskritai jis leistinas. Tokia tat mano pozicija, kuri Lietuvoje toli gražu ne kiekvienam patiks.

Bet Lietuva ganėtinai anachroniška valstybė: pas mus net katalikybė anachroniškesnė už popiežiaus Pranciškaus katalikybę. Tiesa, Lenkijoje šiuo atžvilgiu dar blogiau. Manau, kad aš tikrai homoseksualistų teisti negaliu – kas aš toks, kad galėčiau, kaip ir sakė popiežius.

Bet Lietuva ganėtinai anachroniška valstybė: pas mus net katalikybė anachroniškesnė už popiežiaus Pranciškaus katalikybę.

Ir, mano galva, tas aspektas taip pat liečia įvaikinimo reikalus. Gali būti du tėčiai arba dvi mamytės. Tai, mano supratimu, vaiko nesužalos, nepagadins. Žaloja ir gadina kitokie dalykai, kurie žymiai už tai pavojingesni.

– Supratau.

– Pavyzdžiui, smurtas šeimoje. Tikrai labai žaloja ir gadina.

– Kalbant apie vaikus ir jaunimą, turbūt taip pat turite nuomonę ir dėl 2019-ųjų pabaigoje žurnalo „Time“ Metų žmogumi paskelbtos švedų moksleivės Gretos Thunberg veiklų. Klimato problema tapo ir ganėtinai stipriai politizuota. Jūsų manymu, Gretos asmuo tinkamai atspindėjo kilusią egzistencinę grėsmę ar, visgi, tai buvo daugiau viešųjų ryšių produktas?

– Mane klimato klausimas jaudina. Ir, manau, kad jis esmėje svarbesnis už, tarkime, Vladimiro Putino klausimą. Arba kinų ir amerikiečių ginčus. Branduolinis karas, mano manymu, šiandien mums ne itin gresia. O tai, kad galime išvirti ar iškepti – tikrai gresia.

Beje, tirpstant amžinajam įšalui, išsiskiria metano dujos, kurios daug pavojingesnės nei anglies dioksidas. Jeigu ore jų bus pakankamai daug, gyvybė Žemėje išnyks. Aš jau to tikrai nesulauksiu, bet man baisu dėl anūkų ir proanūkių.

Sakoma, kad Gretos veikla yra public relations reikalas. O jeigu ir yra? Kas čia baisaus? Ji gi faktiškai teisybę sako. Ir net neaišku, jei padarysime viską, kas nuo mūsų priklauso, ar tai mus išgelbės. Bet daryti turime.

Kai kas mane ir ramina. Žemės planeta išgyveno įvairių etapų – ir metano atmosferoje, ir didelės kaitros ar ledynmečių. Pas mus karščiausios vasaros ir šilčiausios žiemos nuo klimato fiksavimo pradžios. Tačiau Indijoje kaip tik užfiksuota šalčiausia žiema. Amerikoje ir Kanadoje žiema irgi buvo šalta. Žodžiu, ne visur pasaulyje taip jau blogai.

Vėlgi, sakoma, kad tirpsta ledynai ir bus užlieti visi pajūrio miestai. Venecijoje tai juntama – nors ten visad potvynių būdavo. Klaipėdoje, ačiū Dievui, dar nejuntama. Sankt Peterburge, Hamburge irgi nejuntama. Gal truputį perdėtos tos baimės? Kaip ir sakiau, Žemės istorijoje periodų turėjome visokiausių, bet viskas kažkaip išsilygindavo.

Galbūt klimatas darysis vis šiltesnis, kol galiausiai bus sunku jį pakęsti, bet po kiek laiko vėl pradės vėsti? Jei taip ir nutiktų, tai duok Dieve. Tada mūsų anūkai ir proanūkiai didelių problemų neturėtų. Bet faktas lieka faktu – reikia padaryti absoliučiai viską, kas mūsų valioje, jog klimato kaitos procesų nepagreitintume.

Branduolinis karas, mano manymu, šiandien mums ne itin gresia. O tai, kad galime išvirti ar iškepti – tikrai gresia.

– Esate minėjęs, kad mieliausia jums būti pristatomam poetu. Tačiau reikia pripažinti, kad poeziją skaito retas. Kokius autorius galėtumėte parekomenduoti žmogui, kuris dar tik kuria savo santykį su poezija? Gal netgi tam tikrus eilėraščius, su kuriais turėtų būti susipažinęs bent šiek tiek poezija besidomintis žmogus?

– Žmogus turėtų per savo gyvenimą perskaityti (nebūtinai originalo kalba; yra puikių vertimų) ir Sapfo, ir trubadūrus, ir Dantę. Taip pat anglų poetus: Shakespeare’ą, Johnną Donne, Byroną (nors pastarąjį ne itin mėgstu). XIX amžiaus romantikus – Goethe, Puškiną, Mickevičių.

O iš XX amžiaus man, asmeniškai, patys artimiausi yra rusų modernistai – Pasternakas, Mandelštamas, Achmatova, Cvetajeva, kuriuos Lietuvoje, dėkui Dievui, dar daug kas žino.

Bet visos tautos turi įdomių poetų. Anglai – Dylaną Tomą, Thomą Stearnsą Eliotą. Amerikiečiai – nuostabų Robertą Frostą. Prancūzai po Baudelaire’o, Verlaine, Rimbaud ir Mallarme labai gerų poetų galbūt ir nebeturėjo: poezija Prancūzijoje beveik mirusi. Vokiečiai turėjo Rilkę, Gottfriedą Beną, Bertoldą Brechtą.

Galiu papasakoti komišką istoriją? Apie tai, kad poetas nebūtinai privalo būti geras žmogus.

– Prašau.

– Anglų-amerikiečių poetas Wystanas Hugh’as Audenas irgi yra vienas tų poetų, kuriuos verta žinoti. Sykį jis susitiko su Josifu Brodskiu ir jam pasakė: „Aš pažinojau tris didžius poetus. Visi jie buvo šunsnukiai (angl. sons of bitches).“

Paklausiau Brodskio, kas tie poetai. Jis atsakė: Ezra Poundas (tas tai tikrai buvo šunsnukis, nes fašistas ir šiaip pusprotis; bet talentingas), Frostas (tai mane labai nustebino; bet Frostas buvo blogas žmogus asmeniniame gyvenime) ir Brechtas (kaip Poundas, bet į kitą pusę; gyveno Rytų Vokietijoje, naudojosi visomis privilegijomis ir nė trupučio nepadėjo komunistų aukoms).

Todėl su morale poezija, deja, turi ne itin daug bendra. Nors Frostas yra vienas iš mano pačių mėgstamiausių poetų – jo kūryba aiški, suprantama, o esmė gili ir labai tragiška. Gilesnė ir tragiškesnė už Elioto, kuris žymiai didesnis modernistas.

Todėl su morale poezija, deja, turi ne itin daug bendra.

– Drįstu pastebėti, kad ir jūsų paties gyvenimas labai margas. Patyrėte daugybę išbandymų, streso. Bet bent jau iš šalies visad atrodote labai ramus, santūrus. Kas jums padeda šią vidinę ramybę susikurti ir išlaikyti?

– Aš nežinau, ar esu jau toks ramus (šypteli).

– Taip tikrai atrodo.

– Galbūt tik atrodo. Turiu dėstytojo patirtį: gebu kalbėti, manau, moku išlaikyti auditorijos dėmesį. Tai padeda per daug nesijaudinti patekus į ginčo atmosferą. Bet esu turėjęs ir problemų. Amerikoje patyriau tai, kas ten vadinama nervous breakdown. Nervinį… kaip čia lietuviškai?

– Nervinį išsekimą.

– Taip. Tokią, galima sakyti, psichinio žlugimo akimirką. Iš dalies dėl to, jog itin sunkiai klostėsi mano asmeninis gyvenimas. O dabar jau apie trisdešimt metų jis klostosi gerai ir tai, reikia pripažinti, labai padeda.

Džiaugiuosi, kad mano suaugę vaikai (touch wood, kaip sakoma) neturi didelių problemų – nėra nei alkoholikai, nei narkomanai. Sukūrė šeimas, patys turi vaikų, yra pilnai savarankiški.

Savo prideda ir amžius. Žmogus bręsdamas darosi ramesnis. Rodos, Normanas Maileris yra pasakęs: kaip bebūtų keista, kuo ilgiau gyveni, tuo mažiau bijai mirties. Ir tai tiesa. Nors labai nenoriu sunkaus mirimo. Jeigu ne tai, sakyčiau, kad mirties visai nebijau.

Rodos, Normanas Maileris yra pasakęs: kaip bebūtų keista, kuo ilgiau gyveni, tuo mažiau bijai mirties.

– Vienas paskutiniųjų mano klausimų būtų apie nuolatinio skubėjimo ir tarpusavio konkurencijos varginamą XXI amžiaus visuomenę. Neretai žmonės „perdega“, nebejaučia gyvenimo skonio ir suserga depresija. Kur šiuolaikiniam žmogui reiktų semtis dvasinės stiprybės?

– Depresija yra liga, kuri ištinka žmogų, ir su tuo sunku kovoti, bet svarbu pabrėžti, kad tai dažniausiai praeinantis etapas. Amerikoje pats sirgau klinikine depresija ir nuo jos gydžiausi.

Man padėjo gydytojai ir mintis, kad jeigu leisiu sau į depresiją nugrimzti, tai suteiks per daug didelį malonumą valdžios žmonėms, likusiems Lietuvoje ir tik laukiantiems, kol aš Vakaruose susmuksiu ir pradėsiu prašytis atgal. Pasakiau sau – šito tikrai nebus. Ir man pavyko išsilaikyti.

Yra garsi legenda apie karaliaus Saliamono žiedą, ant kurio užrašyta – tai irgi praeis. Jeigu tau labai gera, pažiūrėk į tą žiedą – tai irgi praeis. Jeigu tau labai bloga, pažiūrėk – tai irgi praeis. Tai galėjo išmintingąjį Saliamoną nuraminti ir didelio džiaugsmo, ir didelės nevilties akimirkomis.

Yra garsi legenda apie karaliaus Saliamono žiedą, ant kurio užrašyta – tai irgi praeis.

– Profesoriau, ko galėtumėte palinkėti Lietuvai ir lietuviams?

– Visada sakau vieną žodį – sėkmės. Kiekvieną laišką šiuo žodžiu baigiu, tai ir šį pokalbį taip pabaigsiu. Sėkmės.