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The program includes Attorney General Evaldas Pašilis and STT chief Žydrūnas Bartkus.
– Today, many people have the main question: for whom Sutkus and Zalatorius were arrested, many people lacked arguments and clarity. So, prosecutor, what for?
E. Pašilis: You, Edmund, listed at the beginning of the show the acts with which these public figures are suspected. But, once again, I would like to emphasize that today we have very strong headlines, public figures have been arrested. Yes, we talk right away, and we will probably talk about reputation, etc. Prosecutors and officials, I believe, believe in the success of the pre-trial investigation. But let’s not be quick to condemn people. We certainly are not against honest business, against the banks themselves. Another threat is that we should not move the case into the public sphere and address it today.
– Mr. Bartkau, have Sutkus and Zalator already been charged?
Ž. Bartkus A major operation has been underway since this morning, with many officers involved. The people he mentioned and four other people have been detained. They are considered suspects from the moment of arrest. Suspicious notifications will be notified in some of them, others will be notified today, until the end of the day the procedures are completed.
– Can you tell me how specifically both are suspected?
Ž. Bartkus Today I will not go into details about the Penal Code …
– Well, your lawyers will say: It is no secret here.
Ž. Bartkus Yes. In general, we are talking about the items you have listed: influence trading, bribery, bribery, forgery of documents, waste of property. These acts are currently under investigation in the pre-trial investigation.
– Associations in Lithuania can participate in lobbying activities, in other words, trying to change legal acts and regulations. Both led the associations. But do I understand that a crime could be generating income by passing a particular law, or by having a specific impact on a law or some legal change if you are not registered as a lobbyist but receive income from it?
E. Pašilis: Yes of course. If we talk about lobbying, it must first be legal. Today, in the public sphere, we mention that the very representation of the association, the confederation, is not bad. It is not bad to express your opinion, etc. But when it comes to illegal remuneration, the corresponding influence on legislation, on other decisions, if a certain business group is interested, not all citizens, that’s really wrong.
– Mr. Bartkau, from what you said today at the press conference, I understand that Mr. Sutkus received a personal benefit, did your company, which is yours, benefit from influencing the legislators, or not?
Ž. Bartkus Today, I cannot affirm this as a final court decision. But such circumstances are under investigation. When it comes to lobbying, the STT has already spoken about the fact that lobbying is one of the risk areas, there is a risk of corruption.
How lobbying can be illegal: If a natural person does not register as a lobbyist and influences the legislative process, it is illegal in one way. The next moment, if a person registers as a lobbyist but does not declare his activities, does not declare the meetings, the interest groups he represents, is the second way. If you register as a lobbyist, declare your meetings, only his influence is illegal, for example, offer a bribe to make a decision, this is the third way. And the fourth way could be when you act as a lobbyist but receive personal gain. This is in line with the commercial influence provision: for bribes, the use of their influence influences decision makers.
– I will try to draw a picture of the public information you provided. In order not to accept the bank capital tax proposed by the representatives of the Polish electoral campaign, the Banking Association acted through Valdas Sutkus, but reached an agreement with him, according to his data, not as representative of the association, but as a natural person: he made his own company orders. Are we talking about that?
Ž. Bartkus Such a scenario is very likely.
– So where can you talk about bribery? This probably sounds like illegal activity. Lobbying is an authorized activity, lobbyists have certificates with numbers, go to a public official, have to show, declare, etc. But where is the corruption then? Has anyone received bribes?
E. Pašilis: I have repeatedly mentioned that an illegal reward may have been obtained. Still, we have the start of the pre-trial investigation and we don’t want to get ahead, say, how the laws or their amendments were affected, what wording. We mentioned the bank earnings law, but for tactical reasons we certainly would not want to anticipate events, as this is the beginning of the investigation.
– Is it possible to talk about bribery here? Because large-scale bribery is mentioned. What we have been talking about, there is some kind of scheme to get money from a banking association for you, personally in your pocket, pretending to be another activity and actually pushing. But it is not a bribe, it is another activity, right?
Ž. Bartkus You ask a good question. To avoid suspicion from those who are not really suspects, I want to say that today we have no data on possible bribes or bribes by decision makers. We are talking about the actions of the confederation. Some actions also show signs of bribery. You mention an episode, but the investigation investigates more than one episode of a possible crime.
– You mentioned 400 thousand. euros I understand that this is not the amount involved in the approval of a particular law; you are talking here about a systematic act that has resulted in the generation of money in a particular company; I suspect it may be Bonum Partners owned by Mr. Sutku.
Ž. Bartkus Today, we cannot state so categorically that all of this money comes from illegal activities, but we have a duty and a purpose in the investigation to investigate the origin of this money. The data indicates that part of the money could have been obtained illegally.
– In any case, is it hard enough to believe that the association linking Lithuanian banks would agree to some parallel models for transferring money to some vague offices belonging to a specific natural person?
E. Pašilis: But as I said, we really don’t blame the banks, we certainly don’t suspect any banks or agents. [nėra pareikšti], as well as commercial representatives. Because the headlines proclaim the arrest of famous public figures, it presupposes the conclusion that it is as if the police agencies are determined to deal. Definitely not. The Prosecutor’s Office has always defended and will defend the victim and the state itself, since this is our duty, as established in article 118 of the Constitution. We are talking about a potentially opaque influence, which, of course, gives rise to the presumption and the question of the hypothetical question that the entire state, the budget, may have suffered. Perhaps the tax burden on people has increased. I think we can reasonably ask that question.
– Yes, the question may be asked, but I don’t understand anything else: if these people acted politically illegally, what did the politicians act?
Ž. Bartkus Acting as politicians is legitimate because politicians are involved in the legislative process, and the legislative process will only be of high quality when legislation is passed after hearing the arguments of all parties. If it is legitimate lobbying, representation …
– But not in this case.
Ž. Bartkus We have no records of illegal activities, we have evidence that this activity was personally reported. So, in this case, to represent another interest group or, for example, to present arguments that, in principle, would make the adopted legislation illegal or harmful, defective, we do not have the data in the study.
– Are you saying Sutkus did a good job in principle, only he was underpaid for it?
Ž. Bartkus I can say that according to the association law, Sutkus can participate in such activities without registering as a lobbyist. And apparently, this should be considered as one of the main gaps in the lobbying law. Thinking about the future, obviously we should return to this topic. So that all parties, both decision-makers and transparent companies, have an interest in the legislative process, represent their interests transparently, so that everyone can know who represents them, so that decision-makers know in what language , what interests do they represent. people sitting in front. I think today’s research will shake up these processes.
– It may be necessary to highlight the timing of the agreement. A minority of viewers probably know that even registered lobbyists cannot receive a reward, a success fee. They just have to be rewarded for a certain process, but it can’t be related to the result, right? And in this case, it’s about having a success rate, and even pointing out that it’s not what you paid for, right?
Ž. Bartkus Such circumstances are being investigated.
– So this is where the forgery of documents you are talking about arises: in an attempt to disguise the true income ratio, where does that income come from? There is probably some kind of contract that specifies income for an activity, and in reality the head of the association Sutkus received money for the impact on the politicians.
E. Pašilis: I repeat, this is the beginning of the investigation, and we certainly are not going to guess, make assumptions. I think the pre-trial investigation will certainly answer those questions, and it will be seen if those acts will be confirmed, perhaps some will be abolished or new ones will emerge. Because the classification of crime itself can change, and that is normal practice. However, justice is ultimately administered by the court.
– Let’s try to see this situation a little more generally. If all the associations, their leaders, who seek one form or another of influence over the government, themselves or the field they represent, register as lobbyists, that in your opinion would largely solve the problem, wouldn’t it? There was such discussion and even proposals in the Seimas.
Ž. Bartkus Yes, it was only at the beginning of today’s debate that we discussed the fact that registration alone is not the drug that will eliminate all risks: it is necessary to act in accordance with the law. Because even unregistered and not required to declare every act of your lobbying activities [asmuo] You can act transparently and clearly, declaring to everyone what interests you. And now it is possible to act legally, and many things are operating legally. So let’s not rule out the possibility that changes in the law alone will not solve all problems: the human factor will remain. And, let’s say, one of your questions today had an emotion: how could people get involved in such activities …
– Yes, imagine that these are companies, organizations, some of which, with a few hundred years of experience, do not want to mention the names of the big banks, which, despite being involved in money laundering scandals worldwide , declare first class values, etc. – For them, the damage to reputation is great in this case.
E. Pašilis: We do not have data on organized activities, on activities agreed in advance, in groups, etc. So even by removing the reputation stain and encouraging companies who feel that if it’s not today, tomorrow we can come and ask what the relationship was with one or another person who represents their interests anyway; Still it’s best to tell myself that I was involved at the last minute. in my eyes, an opaque outline. I wanted to act and present the arguments legally, but lately I have been offered one or the other scheme of action and, having no time to choose a course of action, I have chosen that course of action.
– Mr. Bartkau, do your investigators have any evidence that the members of the banking association, not the manager or the administration, but the members themselves, the bank managers or at least the board members who attend those association meetings , they may have known that, for example, established through your company, the association, etc.
Ž. Bartkus Apparently, it was early to say categorically, if he knew or not, he had data or not, as in the case not only of the banks but of the business confederation itself, the question of whether the members of the business confederation knew about the actions of the president. The study will show it. There is a high probability that there was a human factor acting without knowing it, hiding such actions. But, let’s say, when it comes to changing the lobby system, there must obviously be interest and associated business structures for processes within them to be transparent. To ensure that members of the governing bodies or members of the confederation do not have questions about what the people representing them are doing.
– Prosecutor, do you think that the current system is transparent? Let’s be frank: many associations are de facto lobbying organizations, and are established to work with authorities and change legislation or regulations in the direction organizations need. Is it the fact that their leaders can now lobby, but at the same time they have nothing to declare, politicians have no obligation to report meetings, a transparent system or not?
E. Pašilis: Perfection is never enough. I very much agree with the STT chief’s arguments about what could be improved. However, the laws themselves … It is not possible to regulate all situations, legal behavior is required, and there is always the possibility of not looking, not understanding … In fact, the opinion of the legislators is very important , which means one or another legal norm.
– Mr. Bartkau, do you think the current system is transparent or not?
Ž. Bartkus Depending on where we brag. If we assume that it is not regulated, all people will behave illegally, then yes, it is not transparent. But there are all kinds of cases. Consequently, we must talk about the human factor: what can be done to raise both the level of morality and ethical standards. As we are talking about today, there is no doubt that we need to revisit the lobbying law, given the situations we are investigating today, how to reduce the risks of such situations in the future.
– After all, associations unite not only business organizations: they unite families, people with disabilities and many different people, who in many cases sincerely represent certain interests, by vocation and not just for financial gain. So maybe comparing everyone also seems pretty strange, do you think?
Ž. Bartkus I agree with that. From the perspective of corruption risks, apparently, where there is greater financial potential, the risks are greater.
– Economist Raimondas Kuodis has been a member of the board of Transparency International for a long time. It proposes to change the legislation so that all proposals from all interested parties are submitted only in a central database and only in writing. In this way everything would be absolutely transparent, all the proposals and arguments would be presented in writing and everything would be visible. In your opinion, would it make sense?
E. Pašilis: I don’t think there can be a recipe. There has to be some smart model, smart behavior of the participants. Finding a single recipe to solve all problems I think would be very difficult.
Ž. Bartkus Apparently that would not be good. Because we already have legislation that is adopted today that is of good quality simply because it has been debated, not only is a reasoned opinion heard, but also an emotion that does not have a written opinion. Then there would be no extremes. But, apparently, both the Lobbying Law and the Legislative Law should be rethought as to how each party should understand the process of hearing arguments and how this should be reflected in the sense of the evidence. Suppose the Seimas sessions are recorded, publicly broadcast, there are measures.
– In any case, I don’t know how you look, but the impression comes from the side that if an association can lobby but at the same time not be subject to the rules as a lobbying professional, it is ultimately unfair. Perhaps there should be the same rules for both the lobbyist for whom it is a profession and the head of the association if they participate in lobbying?
Ž. Bartkus So, let’s start talking about conscience. If we talk about conscience, there will be less corruption. Because if we talk about listening to the arguments in a fair, transparent and open way, then we will also have to pass fewer laws, fewer laws to change, because much will be done in accordance with the general principles of conduct.
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