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Former Prime Minister Algirdas Butkevičius and former Chairman of the Seimas Stasys Jakeliūnas Budget and Finance Committee watch the scandal that drowns the business elite abroad. They agreed to tell the tv3.lt portal how the commercial representatives previously communicated, how the legal acts were being prepared.
Political scientist: politicians discredit the investigation
Rima Urbonaitė, a professor at Romeris University (MRU) and a political scientist, said that so far it is very difficult to assess the situation. We see that only some politicians could have had such contacts with Valdas Sutkus, president of the Lithuanian Business Confederation (LVK), and Mantas Zalatori, president of the Lithuanian Association of Banks. However, it is still unclear what the content of that contact is.
“The politicians, despite the fact that neither the Attorney General nor the head of the Special Investigation Service (STT) mention any names, have not yet spoken about the participation of the politicians, but the politicians themselves have been very active in commenting on the investigation and finding guilt.
The investigation is unclear, but some politicians act as if they know who acted what and are trying to present the results of their investigation to us. The actual study, in my opinion, is discredited by the behavior of the politicians, but here they will not assume any responsibility, they have their own line of action.
As we can see now, again there is an intersection between peasants and conservatives. Ramūnas Karbauskis already clearly points out to some people, shows us the whole picture, it is clear how convenient it is. Conservatives are not without answers: they point the finger, “said R. Urbonaitė.
Rima Urbonaitė
The political scientist points out that politicians should not turn this study into an additional tool in their electoral campaign, since it does not give them credit.
“If in the near future some contours begin to emerge and specific names of politicians appear, this, of course, would strongly confuse the electoral process. Naturally, if they were members of one group or another, it would cast a shadow over the entire group.
But I very much doubt that we have a clear idea before the October elections. Unless more configurable last names can be mentioned, but that should not tell us anything, because there is also a presumption of innocence, that guilt has not yet been proven, “said the interlocutor.
According to the political scientist, there is now a lot of room for various speculations and manipulations. And all parties are doing it and they will: “We want it or we don’t want it, but we, as observers, will participate in that process. Here it is very important that people are critical so that they can distinguish where it is speculated that politicians are earning points by themselves. No matter which side you support, but when it comes to this study, the speeches of politicians must be viewed very carefully and critically. Today’s politicians are not competent to answer: who is who, what processes were there and who ultimately committed certain crimes or not. Only a court can answer that. “
A. Butkevičius does not believe that there have been exceptional conversations.
Former Prime Minister A. Butkevičius also agrees with the political scientist. According to him, political populism is now clearly visible. As the Seimas elections approach, politicians are only looking to downplay the other side. Speaking about the investigation, A. Butkevičius believes that if some money were to be transferred or transferred to someone, then the settlements could take place “unless you are away.”
“When it comes to this, it could be related to the adoption of the law on increasing corporate tax rates.” There is talk that there may have been some influence on politicians. But it makes me laugh a little. There was a lot of discussion because those bills were submitted late. But, I think the commitments were born in those discussions.
Algirdas Butkevičius
I think there really was no exceptional communication with one or the other (V. Sutkus or M. Zalatorius – aut. Past). It should be understood that those committees that are responsible for examining those projects, such as the Committee on Budgets and Finance, needless to say, those members interacted and spoke with committee members during hearings and discussions.
I really consider Mr. Zalator to be a fair, honest and responsible person. As for Mr. Sutkus, I recall, he was more involved in the introduction of a trade tax, which would have been contrary to EU law. In this regard, he also actively participated in the hearings and spoke. But I don’t think there have been any exceptional conversations with the Seimas members, “said A. Butkevičius.
“They will always defend commercial interests, but politicians are on the other side”
When asked how business representatives or lobbyists influence legislation, if politicians always understand that the law is “under pressure,” the former prime minister replied that those people would always defend business interests, but the responsibility of politicians on the other side.
“Much depends on the honesty, duty, responsibility and decency of a person. Several business organizations are always involved and present proposals in all countries. It must be understood that they will always defend the interests of the business.
Business representatives may attend committee meetings, hearings, speak or make written proposals. A democratic state governed by the rule of law must be like this. But on the other hand, there are politicians, so that the state does not suffer, to guarantee justice, not to have an exclusive business group, “said A. Butkevičius.
A. Butkevičius: V. Sutkus was a rare guest in government
According to him, when he worked as prime minister, it was a very rare opportunity to meet with business representatives.
“Unless we participate in working groups that also include leaders of business organizations. Usually, I met with Robert Dargis, president of the Confederation of Industrialists. Definitely not once, because I thought that this organization was the most representative of the business and that the meeting was not one.
At the time, V. Sutkus was more involved in ministries, tripartite councils, and working groups, but was a rare guest in the government itself. It was not the case that cafes or restaurants discussed any fiscal or other issue. But we need to improve and understand that the key factor is honesty and decency. Trust is also important. Sometimes there are people who have hidden goals, sometimes even causing such cases, “said A. Butkevičius.
A. Butkevičius also evaluated information from the STT that V. Sutkus is believed to have intentionally provided biased negative information in order to reward to undermine the authority of then-Minister of Transport and Communications Rokas Masiulis.
“We have done a lot with R. Masiulis in the construction of a liquefied natural gas terminal. Other projects were implemented before the deadline. At that time, I felt that R. Masiulis is an honest and principled person.
But when evaluating those projects that it did not implement as electrification, I have a big question here: why did this happen and why did it not implement it, because it is a great danger to Lithuania, “said A. Butkevičius.
According to the former prime minister, he would like to know the whole truth as soon as possible, but investigations often take a long time: “It is very confusing. Some politicians are already trying and will try to exploit this situation for its popularity. The worst is when the false information becomes true, although after a while you see that it was a lie, but everyone is already forgotten. This is the biggest blow to politicians at heart. Personal emotion becomes collective, and during elections, almost 80 percent. people are driven by emotions. “
S. Jakeliūnas: “it must be done transparently, clearly, not secretly”
The former chairman of the Committee on Budget and Finance, now MEP Stasys Jakeliūnas, said very little information had been reported so far. He noted that he also had to deal with Mr. Zalatori and felt great aggression on his part. S. Jakeliūnas claims that he even refused to participate in the shows together.
“M. Zalator’s role in this study is unknown: what he and the association did. But from what happened in early 2019 and in April, when information was released about Vilibor’s possible manipulations, […] It was a great aggression, demagoguery on the part of Mr. Zalator, and at least in the public space the limits were certainly exceeded. I refused to appear with him at the time.
As for Mr. Zalator’s involvement in any criminal activity or corruption, which is now suspected, I have neither seen nor heard of such events. I hope that specific banks, especially SEB, Swedbank and other banks, are not involved in financing illegal activities, ”said S. Jakeliūnas.
Stasys Jakeliūnas
According to the MEP, the emphasis on what someone has known now has given them a document to read. In his opinion, the greatest influence is exercised through public space.
“If a position is presented and another position is evaluated in a very critical and derogatory manner, it gives you little or no opportunity to present your opinion and your arguments,” said S. Jakeliūnas.
According to S. Jakeliūnas, when he chaired the Seimas Budget and Finance Committee, they also invited several representatives.
“It just came to our attention then. For example, when I raised the issue of Revolut and its invitation to come to Lithuania, I held hearings on the subject: What is the role of the Bank of Lithuania in the emergence of Revolut in Lithuania? […] I held hearings, Revolut wanted to actively participate in the meetings, but I deliberately ignored them and did not invite them because the meeting was closed.
If an opinion from business associations or individuals has been previously issued, if that position is sufficiently substantiated, you should be invited to listen to that opinion in detail and discuss it. There have been many such discussions. I think it is very important that the information is provided in writing, and not just that it come and share or demand. So the debate leads to good decisions.
A transparent and objective process is even mandatory. When representing commercial interests, this must be done transparently and clearly, and not in secret, or by requesting some certificates, which can be presented on behalf of the members of the Seimas, “said S. Jakeliūnas.
S. Jakeliūnas considers the part of the STT investigation that V. Sutkus could tend to act against R. Masiulis, undermine his authority or seek dismissal for a reward as insignificant: “I consider this place as a minor argument. Not only that, it is completely favorable to V. Sutkus, because it is forbidden to have a critical opinion and give it to anyone. Perhaps you had an interest in various companies or other companies to represent you. There is not necessarily something wrong with that in itself. “
Political scientist: “Everything could end in a great fiasco again”
Political scientist Kęstutis Girnis has a question after the publicized corruption scandal: the prosecutor’s office is trying to show that they are working effectively, do they really have that evidence?
“Politicians have been known to interact with businessmen, and businessmen are trying to persuade politicians to make decisions that benefit them. But these are perfectly legitimate things.
However, it must be shown that V. Sutkus actually received money for dishonest lobbying. I can’t imagine how to prove it. Looking at it, as before, even in simpler cases, they were unable to prove cooperation or a relationship.
I think it could all end in a big fiasco again: it doesn’t prove anything and then confidence in law enforcement will decline. It is interesting that the courts tend to detain the suspects as long as possible, and V. Sutkus and M. Zalator were released and they were given another measure of preventive detention, “said the interlocutor.
Kęstutis Girnius
The political scientist does not believe that there are specific accusations before the elections, or that it will be public to say which politicians he tried to influence to say in whose favor V. Sutkus worked.
“Until it is specified who tried to influence what and what, it will simply be emptied through. It is clear that conservatives will say that the peasants in power, if anything was bought, are the peasants. And the peasants can say against conservatives or former social democrats.
For various reasons, V. Sutkus might think that R. Masiulis did his job poorly. If you think so, it makes sense to campaign in your field for removal.
However, I don’t see how this can be considered a criminal offense. If people say that there is no need to collect S. Skvernelis or R. Karbauskis, then there is no crime here if there are no secondary reasons. Secondary reasons must be demonstrated that R. Masiulis did not allow V. Sutkus to cheat, blocked. That would be very difficult, “said K. Girnius.
The Attorney General’s Office and the STT are conducting a pre-trial investigation into large-scale bribery, bribery, exchange of influence, waste of property, and falsification of documents. On Tuesday, the President of the Lithuanian Business Confederation V. Sutkus and the President of the Lithuanian Bank Association M. Zalatorius and four other business representatives were arrested.
Law enforcement links potential crimes to illegal lobbying and impact on legislative processes. Police said they were clarifying the 400,000 people who belong to V. Sutkus. origin.
According to the law enforcement data, among the bills that could have had an illegal effect: at the end of 2019, the Lithuanian budget package of laws for 2020, bank property laws and taxes on earnings and others.
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