Norkienė, who appeared on the Veryga LVŽS list: faction as choir, and Karbauskis – conductor

“Procedural shower”

– For you, this was the first quarter of the Seimas, how would you describe it? What was the mood at the beginning, how was it possible to start working in parliament, how long was it clear how the Seimas works from within?

– Yes, the term was my first, so, like everyone else, it was exceptional. As I say, we learn in life, but here we have such a special school of life for those four years. Although I wasn’t new to politics, at least that’s what I thought, but here, of course, it’s quite different. I came to politics in small steps, and after capturing everything, I realized that if you want to give something to the people of your country, you should not only teach others to do it, but also put in the effort yourself. And when we got here, the principle was that most of us (factions, aut. P.) were here for the first time, everything is new.

And then you start to understand what kind of people are around, what are they doing, why are they talking so much, what’s next. We were kind of graduating, but we were bathed in a procedural sense, feeling very uncomfortable then. (…) And then, as anywhere, more experience, understanding who is where. And the interesting thing is that I have tested many areas this quarter.

– For example?

– I started working in the Audit Committee, you know, like in the Seimas, and you have a very large faction. And you have to master it, understand it over the years, see who is capable of what, its stronger sides. But hey, we are different in life, because here is a reflection of life. It is that diversity that also brings yours. Some were very convinced that they would only work on a committee and would never resign, so some compromises had to be made. This is how I found myself on the Audit Committee, where I never thought I would work. (…) Then I went to the Social Affairs Commission, there was another job, the result was much faster. Then it happened that I worked in the Committee on Legal Affairs and the Rule of Law during the third year of my mandate and in the Committee on Foreign Affairs during the last year. It was an intense year, I had to study and read a lot.

– How was the work of the faction immediately after arriving at the Seimas in 2016? There were many politicians in parliament for the first time, so how did you manage, who and where, why, how did this joint work of the group begin to take shape?

– At the beginning, we get together, what areas do we want. Many then told the eldest of our faction (R. Karbauskis, aut. P.) why he had not chosen one or the other position. But really, it was a time where we really needed to lead the faction and bring everyone together. It was essential to explain what a meeting is, how to act there, vote. It seems elemental.

– But did it need to be remembered and repeated?

– Of course, we all had to learn that together. (…) One of our greatest ambitions was that we wanted many of those reforms, we took many. And, you know, you come young and you think we will take it well. And then you realize how much there is to do and it doesn’t happen like it’s greased with butter. It is necessary to discuss, from the opinions of the country that there is, of everything. When you realize all this, things slow down.

But another thing that (the faction, aut. P.) strengthened is that we all said we would dissipate. And the more they say about you, the more we do not come to do anything because of bad incentives, we really came up with altruistic things. But then you realize that there is such a bureaucracy here, things don’t happen that fast. And then comes the disappointment. And yet, people begin to fall apart. When it first came out, there was a simple question for everyone: “how?”

– We are talking about Bronislaw Matel here, right?

– Yes, it is strange when you meet them within the group and then what statements come out, then you discuss that it is normal, it needs more publicity. But for me personally, these are immoral things. After all, we ourselves are lowering the image of a politician. After all, you must be honest with others and with yourself. Maybe, God forbid, give them fame, qualification. But here is the philosophy itself and the perspective of life.

– And what was the most difficult for you?

– In four years it’s facebook. I understand and realize that this is a very effective platform. But when you need to constantly advertise there, remind yourself. I agree, but I interact with those people live, I realize, but inside me they are constantly shattered.

– What do you need to promote?

– Not just for advertising. I know that most politicians don’t write there themselves. They will hire something, someone will kindly write about them. I am in favor of live, natural and sincere communication, not on the side of the show. Although sometimes it is necessary. But if you want to work, that’s what you do: work in silence, with patience. What united us most in the faction was that they humiliated us in every way, saying that we were not going in that direction, that something was occurring to us. But then you sit quietly, you think: are we really doing something wrong? Of course not. It hardened us.

– That criticism, specifically?

– Yes of course. I’m not saying that we didn’t make mistakes, we did, but criticism has to be measured, with arguments. And I told the opposition that if they see otherwise, let them say so. It is not necessary to pull those sheets that are better here. But, in principle, when we go to the elections, we declare that we work for Lithuania and its people. But there was no such trust. And this probably killed him the most in the Seimas: he is none other than the other. Perhaps the details of our group were still important, because most of us were from the regions, we were pushed into that elite (circle, aut. P.). And we feel uncomfortable at first. But after that you realize that we are all doing the same job, there is no need for additional arrogance here, nothing more. After all, you are the same member of the Seimas.

– And there is no need to fly away?

– Certainly not, perhaps in the past that focus was another member of the Seimas. We have come, we have no privilege. The old people (aut. P.) Those who knew us today say, uh, they took the cars, the rents (aut. P.) Also. I know that the same elected Seimas member in my constituency paid for the car and bought the residual value. Formally like everything is fine, but how do you feel inside that you drive with that? Can’t afford it?

Of course, the beginning was also difficult for my family, we had a car, I needed to save and buy another to have to go to Vilnius with someone. But everything is settled, you know where you are going. The same life in a hotel in Seimas, after all, is a tool of my work. I am here on a business trip, I come on Monday, I return to Taurage on Thursday. After all, there is no privilege here.

A faction like a choir

– I want to ask about communication in the group, because there have been people who have left the LVŽS in four years. From the escaped lips, there were certainly statements about the difficulty of living with the monopoly of R. Karbauskis, it is difficult with his interests. But is that job really seen in the faction? Is there really such a one-sided leader that a colleague has already spoken of?

– I think that’s where everyone’s attitude towards a leader is. I myself say that there is a lack of a leader, you have to take responsibility and lead. It’s natural for him to have to do that, to have that backbone. I could never say that we don’t hear anything, we really listen to everyone. But we have to make that decision somehow. There is no other way to vote. Perhaps those others are more individualistic. Here, as a choir, we have soloists, but here the team is like a choir, we have to reconcile the voices, and he is the conductor.

And when there is no director, everything falls apart. This is the focus of the guide itself. And it is more difficult to be that leader in the Seimas, because everyone has their own ambitions. I am very happy that those of our females are there, I think that the feminine beginning brings peace, reassures them, thinks and then you try to get along. Those who say about authoritarianism in our group are not. In the third year of this period, we already began to tell the elder of the group that he should be more strict.

– Is the driver leading a faction well?

– I think so. He’s very diplomatic, quite calm. If you look sideways, sometimes you think that the other should be exploiting so much information, desires, wishes and suggestions. But everything, like everything, is under control.

– Are there many wishes in the group?

– Of course, like everywhere. But I look at it from two sides. Everything is fine – you must have those ideas, you just need to measure them or they will be timely, appropriate and necessary.

– With what arguments does R. Karbauskis convince the members of the group that there is no need to offer a certain idea now?

– It’s very logical, it affects me, I don’t know like the others. There are no emotions, only logic, arguments, facts, everything is weighed. It is a good option for me. Very rational.

– Emotions get nowhere?

– Very rarely, really. I always say that we must remember why we came and that returning to the starting position also affects people.

– How he saw himself within the group escapes her?

– The first ones were very painful. Because it seems that we all made together, shared aspirations, a program. You come full of enthusiasm and it hurts a lot at first. Because nobody comes to say it publicly while reading the headlines of their statements.

We didn’t realize much at first, the more experienced ones explained why this was being done. It’s not nice, it would be more acceptable to me if a person came and said. Because there was no great anger with anyone. And when the last reason for the lawsuit, why did he go? … I understand, everyone tells the whole situation on their part.

– It seems that the withdrawal of Mr Urbšis from the group was very painful. What did everything look like from the inside?

– I don’t know, Povilas is a hard worker, at the beginning we all used his experience. Not only in the Seimas, but also politically, in part he has taught us a lot. Maybe so. But in the faction, we do not highlight the evil, maybe later it became some kind of personality. (…) It is possible that some have not received what they really wanted: publications perhaps, something else, perhaps an insult, although perhaps not even promised. It’s weird things like that, but they happen.

– To what extent has Prime Minister Skvernel influenced the work of the group? And was there really so much anger between R. Karbauskis and S. Skvernelis?

– I would not call it anger, perhaps it was a more heated debate. This is normal because everyone has their own points of view. And these are the two leaders. Normally, they don’t agree on something. We felt inside that anger and disagreement were fostered from the outside than what we felt inside. (…) To the people, of course, public opium gives it its own and the counties ask, this is what they are angry with now. Like not being angry, there is no reason, after all, we are still going in the same direction. And sometimes that disagreement with sparks is also natural. I think that this tandem benefits Lithuania, but it is not.

– Let’s make predictions, if it happens that the LVŽS will be in power again, would this tandem of Skvernelis and Karbauskis work again?

– I would very much hope that was the case. Because it would already be much easier, there is really a lot to learn, I think the second quarter provides an opportunity to show. Because four years in public administration is very little. Besides, you know how it goes. (…) In any case, in my opinion, we should rest after two terms. Here for such a return to reality. I think that those who are from the regions do not allow them to break with reality, we see Lithuania every day. And who lives here, sees a different image. (…) I think that this tandem would be even stronger, because everything is already chained, you know how to do it.

– Could the peasants work in opposition?

– I think so. After all, you never know, it would be an experience.

– And would you like to work in the opposition?

– I don’t know if I would. The position is a continuous job, and eight years in power would allow for the breakthrough everyone hopes and wishes to achieve.

Jump in the list

– You were on the list of 53 in LVŽS 2016, after ranking – 42. Now you have 4, how did this jump happen? How do you interpret this yourself?

– That jump, I think, that work in the faction has paid off. That job, it is not visible, with strong headlines, it is consistent work with colleagues. I think they appreciated it, they gave a cruel responsibility to these delicate woman’s shoulders. But I think it is the constant work of our 4 years, the cognition from within as a member of the team, maybe because of that. Perhaps the fact that he is vice president also contributed. I don’t know what else to think about here. I think the work here in the group has worked. (…) These jumps should not be exaggerated.

– Such a position that you have on the list would be called by political scientists perhaps even the place of the “black horse”. Let’s name the list as it is: S. Skvernelis, R. Karbauskis, A. Veryga and you. And here the question arises: what does the party see, what does the voter not see?

– I don’t even know if there were communication problems in our group. Because some of us are the ones who work and you don’t have time to go to the show or do anything there. And there are those who find some time and then the circle turns. Maybe I should, but I haven’t lived with Facebook in four years because I’m torn by internal attitudes. I know how many false things there are, that kills me.

– Did that position surprise you?

– Yes, I didn’t expect it. I really think there are more visible politicians, even if they are women. They may be more valuable, but whatever that number is, the voter will decide everything. It is possible that it will go down, which is basically the opinion of my colleagues, I am very happy that it is. There are invisible workers everywhere.

– Rima Baškienė, commenting on the qualifying results to his fellow journalists, was surprised to be on the 12th list, although he was not obedient enough. That begs the question: Are you in that position because you’ve been obedient to the group leader?

– And what does obedient mean? (…) But when you debate in a faction and you agree to do the same, it would be immoral for me to do the opposite because I will betray the comrades. (…) For that opinion, she is ranked 12th on the list, maybe that’s not a bad thing. It’s good to have an opinion just by seeing how much it will influence overall decisions. Because if your only vote determines that there is no solution, then who needs your opinion in the common boiler? Go to the Mixed group of Seimas members and have her there. If you are in a faction, then that work must be shared, it has to be as a team. (…) Finding a common denominator is a complex and time-consuming task. Of course, sometimes there is a natural frustration that someone has decided. (…) But then you try to say that if the experts know this area better …

So, trusting colleagues, your opinion is more important than the one you disagree with. But the one who contradicts still appears, he is stubborn. And disobedience is seen more often. And then the question arises of which is more important: visibility or joint work.

Weren’t the bridges burned?

– At the last Council meeting, LVŽS decided to terminate the agreement with the Lithuanian Social Democratic Labor Party (LSDDP) on cooperation in the Seimas elections. Won’t there be bridges here to burn the future?

– We do not terminate any contract with them. There was only one cooperation agreement of this type in the electoral phase. But after those last votes in the Seimas, the last straw was that we would go to the polls, although less, but we would be sure of our values.

– What were the other drops?

– These commitments have their price, one more, the other less, but they are forgotten. At that point, everyone looks angry like a hornet, and then it comes and goes. And here it was perhaps a surprise. In the Coalition Council, we talk about the issues of that day, we coordinate the voting and the partners do not say anything. Then, in the Seimas session, after the vote, you see the results and then everyone asks: what did you do that morning in that coalition session, if you don’t agree on those things? And then they get bathed because they didn’t say anything. Perhaps that is what so-called high politics is about: what interests do they have without saying and voting like this? Then we tell them to say thank you, but maybe we will do it ourselves.

– Who is the biggest opponent of the peasants in the next elections? What do you call it that?

– Naturally, the candidates on the right are unique members. And anyway, it will be a battle between those who want to change everything, take away what we did this legislature, and us who want to continue with those jobs. I think so conservatives.

– And what role does the Lithuanian Social Democratic Party (LSDP) play here?

– It was strange to me that they, representing the political force of the left, are not only sitting on the right, but are defending that other side so strongly that the conservatives do not even have to do anything, the social democrats discourage them and do everything for them. It’s me going here and there for me, I didn’t realize. (…) I respect the conservatives, they have a line that follows. But when the people sitting on the left are going in that direction and they have the feeling that they are doing everything they can to get there. Things like that change for me.

The coalition would speak to the conservative Christian flank

– The peasants won the 2016 Seimas elections by a large margin. What is your prognosis? What will happen this October?

– We all know that when you are in power, you are not well liked, you will always find something to talk about, voters will find penalty points.

– How many of those penalty points are you waiting for?

– I would not dare to predict in numbers. Because you don’t want to be very optimistic, but also pessimistic. The voter is always unpredictable, especially in Lithuania.

– When talking about the next elections in the party, what is the mood of the speaker here? Is your prognosis the overwhelming majority? How do you really assess the situation? Will the faction probably be smaller in the next period?

– Yes, we think it will be smaller. But we really believe that we can form a coalition and put it together. There really are challenges to putting it together. Because the more parties in the coalition, the more software dispositions must align, compromise, withdraw from their positions with certainty. But we would like to believe it.

– With whom?

– It would still be the center left. Although, in fact, we do not rule out the possibility, at least a part of us, that maybe … Still, four years ago we spoke with the conservatives when you think: if those two forces reconciled the basics, why not forget the ambitions of the parties? But here maybe another utopia. But why not?

– Do you dream of such a scenario?

– I would love to.

– Are you saying that after this Seimas period, with all the anger, it would be possible to sit at a table and agree?

– His ranking showed completely different things in his match. We notice it too. And that part with true Christian values, they are very acceptable to us. In such valuable positions, for the family, for such things, we really agree with them very much.

– But with his Christian flank?

– Yes, exactly. But their internal rankings showed that they were important there too. Now it is unclear if there will be actual members of the Seimas.

– I ask – would you talk to Laurynas Kasčiūnas, not Gabriel Landsbergis?

– You need to talk to everyone. I don’t know what it will be like at your party, but with us it’s really not the case that one decides what it will be like next. Because we also had a very long discussion in 2016, there were doubts. I don’t really rule out a single last name.

– But in the sense of values?

– One is to declare, they do not declare anything else in public, that is, the Conservative Party.

– Is it really real that this happens? Knowing what has happened in the last four years: conservatives against the peasants in a procedural sense, insults, both from both sides. Is it really possible?

– I think if we really saw that Lithuania needs it, we would do it. But I can only speak for myself.