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What new meaning has the G.Floyd symbol created and why are there still negative aspects of the problem of racism that has been going on from generation to generation? We are discussing this with Saulius Sužiedėlis, professor of history at the University of Millersville, USA. USA
“Racism is a long-standing problem. <...> How all this will unfold, whether police reforms will be carried out, whether laws will change and what Congress will do, remains an open question, “he said.
Generational differences?
– In the context of the protests, there is a growing debate about the older and younger generations and the differences between their points of view. When and where did this difference occur?
– One of the main reasons for this change is the changed demographic situation in the United States: the white population is shrinking, people are beginning to live closer to each other. The criteria are also changing in a cultural sense, with younger people more open to problems affecting sexual minorities, and so on. However, it cannot be said that there is no racism among young people. <…>, just like looking at the crowds of protesters with many older people.
One of the things that has not changed is the inequality that has existed for some time due to the economic situation, which is exacerbating things.
– Regarding the previous generation, for example, the United States’ national security adviser, Robert C. O’Brien, said that he did not believe that systemic racism existed. In his opinion, “99.9 percent. Ours [JAV] law enforcement officers are cool Americans. “Why do high-ranking officials deny the problem, which is obvious?
– This framework – R.C.O’Brien – I saw it myself. And the issue is political. Because society is highly fragmented, the attitudes of a third of the population supporting Donald Trump will not change. Here’s a political game to find support, as this third of voters believe there is no racism here, there are only a couple of bad cops here, as the Americans say, a “couple of bad apples.”
Efforts need to be made to avoid seeing systemic racism.
Of course, this makes no sense, because no effort is needed to see systemic racism. Reluctance to see this problem is a problem of the previous generation in both Lithuania and the United States, which means that if it does not exist, there is no need to change anything.
– So they want to keep status quo?
– They don’t just want to keep status quo, but, more clearly, to introduce “order and justice”. This is a standard political slogan heard by American conservatives for several decades. But there is another important thing to keep in mind. Looking at the events of the past few days, it has been seen that high-ranking officials who have left the reservation have begun to publicly criticize the president’s policies. They are not liberals, but conservative people, officers who supported the protesters when they saw the situation. In my opinion, this is an important boost in the country’s politics.
There is a consensus, but why is it happening on the part of the military? Because it was the first institution where racial integration took place in the 1960s. It is crucial that officers maintain discipline and integrity. For these reasons, they do not want to take the army to the streets, they clearly oppose him. <…>.
The phenomenon of protest from a historical perspective.
– The press compares the murder of George Floyd and the resulting protest of the 1968 civil unrest, when civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr. was killed.
– The analogy is there, but it is quite superficial. There are stark differences between what is happening now and the M.L.King era. As an older person, I still remember her, although for young people this stage may sound like a medieval story. Yes, the stores have been on fire in recent days, there is a robbery, which is already underway, but compared to that, there is much less violence today.
Compared to then, there is much less violence today.
By the way, look at the so-called demographic variety of the protesters. Many whites attend the demonstrations and sometimes represent a higher proportion, depending on the demographic reality of the part of the city. Incidentally, society itself is already reacting differently. According to recent polls, the majority of the population supports peaceful and peaceful protest, not robbery. In my opinion, some superficial comparisons are and can be understood, but there is a big difference.
– Could you find any links to other historical events that essentially recall the ongoing protest in the United States?
I am afraid to say something. Compared to the Lithuanian Reorganization Movement, in which I participated, I would receive several criticisms. But compared to that silent portion of protesters in the US. USA They go out onto the streets with families and children, flags and posters, reminiscent of peaceful protests.
However, this is only part of the reality, as conflict situations and other incidents have arisen that, with the exception of January 13, did not exist. The conflict in the White House, for example, in which protesters were pushed further so that the president could appear with the Scriptures, is quite different.
I would like to add that when I watch television, the places where the police confront protesters without sticks and without shields seem to evaporate. However, when everyone seems to be armored, some kind of conflict arises naturally. Everything is happening in this extremely difficult situation. But the calm and peaceful protests, which are also supported by religious people, recall the peaceful protests in Lithuania and Ukraine.
So you don’t see the current protest with elements of unrest as a threat to democracy?
– Not much. Of course, there are extremists who try to take advantage of this situation because it benefits them. Here we need to distinguish its spectrum from [radikalių] left Marxist to fascist Both groups have contributed to the violence, which is evidenced by police reports.
However, they are a clear minority, they are marginal. Yes, they are dangerous, but there will be no coup. <…>. Reading some comments on social media, especially in Lithuania, can give the impression that the whole of America is on fire. But that is not really the case. Of course, I can only see those vaccines that confirm my predisposition …
Recurring collective trauma
– Also interesting are links to the trauma of slavery, which has not disappeared from the collective memory of Americans over the years. What cultural changes do you think must take place for it to disappear?
– Changes are really happening and even historical perceptions are changing. You may have seen the demolition of monuments to so-called Confederate commanders. This is a very important moment, because in legal terms they were traitors, but after the 19th century. The myth of the civil war that took place was that it was a kind of misunderstanding, that both sides were fighting on their own. In fact, this civil war, one of the most painful experiences in the United States, was about slavery. The question arose: should it be repealed or not?
This dilemma was tackled in an armed way and killed half a million people. Later, this narrative changed, more or less, “Yes, those Southerners fought for their freedom, a separate way of life, economic rights, etc.” Then the understanding of the essence darkened, there was a legal segregation that still prevailed in central Washington while I was still in college.
As in Lithuania, in societies that have been affected by totalitarianism, this heritage has had extremely serious consequences that do not disappear immediately. <...>. But the monuments themselves are like some Stalinists [skulptūrų] demolition, transfer to the museum is important, because we are not trying to rewrite, but to understand the essence of the story: it is a slave uprising, not a legal conflict <…>.
– Is it possible to compare the problems of racism in the United States with the problems of nationalism in the post-Soviet countries?
– The question of nationalism bothers me considerably. For years, I listened to the debate about how Americans accuse Eastern Europeans of nationalism. But the latter in America is sufficient. Especially at the moment when [JAV valdo] President D. Trump.
Of course, extreme nationalism is always dangerous and I am not talking about a person who simply values their roots, way of life, language and history. It is a healthy patriotism. But when we start dividing people into good and bad ignoring the subtleties, it is already a mistake.
I would say that in Eastern Europe, nationalism is now a problem. We see what is happening in Hungary, in Lithuania we have historical problems related to the Holocaust and the painful reality, which must be recognized because the Lithuanians participated in it.
These problems constantly arise and divide society. This is inevitable because there are people who do not want to see what is in front of their eyes. I think these things will lead to endless conflict in the future, and emotions should be avoided here.
– Can it be said that the traumatic experiences of Europe have led to an active response to the murder of Mr. Flyd?
– This [kad protestas persikėlė ir į Europą, – aut. past.] I am very surprised and don’t even know what to answer, because there is a big difference between what happened in the year of M. King and what is happening now that we have a certain global moment. Perhaps advanced social media technologies have also contributed to this reality. <…>.
I think protests in London are more perceived because they are racial and social. [santvarka] Britain is similar to the situation in America <...>.
I did not expect that there would be so many young people in Vilnius who would pose this problem.
But I really didn’t expect that there would be so many young people in Vilnius that would pose this problem. I appreciate the sensitivity to justice, the outrage at seeing a shot in which another person is killed. But this is something new, I don’t know how to evaluate it, so I will try to see what happens in the future.
Floyd is a new symbol of racial injustice
– Flloyd was killed on May 25. The street where it took place will become a memorial, the phrase “I can’t breathe” will not be easily forgotten, even his graffiti portraits are drawn on the city walls, and the theater world moved with the inscription “Dear White American Theater “(Expensive at the White American Theater). What new meaning created the Floyd symbol?
– He became a victim. And if he was ever convicted or if he was a minor offender it doesn’t matter, because his murder is a simple murder … I think that society naturally and spontaneously seeks characters and this image of a person who cannot breathe, strangled expresses a indifferent society. [spaudimą], [neteisybę]When the police see us only as criminals, then violence is justified.
He became a victim.
Of course, when a person is strangled, they feel captive, they are locked up. I think this symbol is extremely accurate and that is why many ordinary citizens, people of all races and religions, take to the streets and this moment unites them. Again, I want to emphasize that there is a big difference between what happened in Richard Nixon’s time and what is happening now. It is clear that this symbol unites people, and we will see what it will be like in the future. But it seems to me that this protest will continue and will have long-term consequences.
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