The epic of the national stadium: after the conflict between the mayor and the government: the search for a compromise

The program includes the Vilnius Mayor, Remigijus Šimašius, and the Government Chancellor, Algirdas Stončaitis.

– Mr Šimašiau, you said out loud last week that the “peasants” had killed the national stadium. I will remind you that the Public Procurement Office (VPN) had suspended the signing of the construction and management concession contract in March, you appealed to the court, but the court ruled that Suspension of the VPN is justified, and the VPN has now ordered that the tender is closed entirely, as the contract cannot be considered a concession, according to the service.

R. Šimašius: First of all, we realize that VPN and “peasants” are not the same. But the reason I said that strong phrase last Thursday is a long story, and we saw if there was support or not. That support was formal, we were left alone. Sometimes it seemed that someone from the national government would be happy if we were wrong.

What we have now received from the VPN was very surprising. Because the VPN had twice said it was a concession, it was not even considered, and everything was in order, and the Central Project Management Agency (CPMA) had confirmed that everything was fine, the Ministry of Finance said that everything It was fine, finally the European Investment Bank, which really but not going anywhere, also said that everything is fine. And lo and behold, we suddenly learn the completely opposite result. And this is after a long letter from the Ministry of Education, where some old things are questioned. Clearly, that surprised me. We have now declared death, but perhaps this is a precondition for the project to live in the future.

– Why do you think that?

R. Šimašius: Now I hear some things. First, the VPN itself tends to listen to the arguments. The day before yesterday, we presented our observations on this conclusion: there is a great opportunity. Because there are also real discrepancies, just wrong things, and there are things that could change a contract by changing the vocabulary. This is one. If the service says it’s okay, we can travel.

And what is very gratifying is that we have heard the government’s reassurance that it is very important for a national stadium to appear in Vilnius. In fact, for the first time, I heard it from the Prime Minister clearly and boldly. I really want to thank you for that. I think this is also a prerequisite for us to continue traveling with this project. Now it’s important what conclusion the VPN will make, whether to listen to our arguments or not.

– You said, you have the impression that someone is waiting for the opportunity to rejoice when you get confused: have you been confused and is someone already happy?

R. Šimašius: Yes. You see, there were many stages. There were court proceedings, inclusions and exclusions – we wanted more entrants to participate in the competition, then we were not allowed to enter due to a few minutes of delay, here is a 3 year story. Then the elimination of European money, then the elimination of managing the money problem through gateways. That was it.

And it’s particularly disappointing when the VPN’s arguments are based on the fact that something has changed, and has changed because it inevitably had to change, because European money has been wiped out. And the money was scrapped by the government because it was supposedly risky. And there is no risk, because neither the public sector, nor the state, nor the municipality pay a single euro until the keys are delivered. And pay after the first high-level control match played. So it was all very strange. But now, in fact, I think the situation is much better than a week ago.

– Mr. Stončaitis, Prime Minister Skvernelis said that if Vilnius fails, the state will build, and described the mayor’s statements as inadequate. What possible additional scenarios do you think?

A. Stončaitis: Firstly, of course, the Vilnius National Stadium can now be judged as you wish, and jokes have been created and it has been the winner of “Golden Onions” on April 1 for several years. It’s weird, we really can’t say that only one government is involved. City government has changed, many terms, many times, so here it is like the London circle: it sits down, turns around and sees that it has fallen again.

What are the possible solutions? First of all, we have a politically active season, because the preparations for the elections are taking place, of course, these are inevitable, sometimes the sharpness in the speeches, the evaluations, is inevitable. However, everyone, both the government and the municipality of Vilnius city, must agree. And we agreed all the time. There was never a different opinion than that Vilnius needs a national stadium.

I don’t want to agree with the honorable mayor for a while, apparently today the show has no intention of opposing each other. I just want to remind you that this Government and the Prime Minister have constantly said that money is provided, that the change of money from European to budgetary was. Since the risks are real, we will not absorb the money in time and they will disappear. But European money has been replaced by the budget and nothing has changed. Like organizing access and bringing communications for more than $ 20 million. euros … All this agrees.

What to do next? Of course, I think it is necessary to assess the situation, after thinking, apparently, the mayor and the municipality have already done it, if everything has ended with this idea on the Šeškinė hill. As we have heard in the mayor’s speech, there are still opportunities. If they are, then we will certainly find a consensus, both from the central government and the Vilnius municipality, because it is in the public interest.

What are the other alternatives? As we spoke yesterday with the Lithuanian Football Federation, other representatives, today we have a changing situation in the country, because there are absolutely all the preconditions, we are convinced, in 2 years Lithuania will have the best Darius and Girėnas stadium in Kaunas, serving four international star standards. This is an alternative today. There is also talk of Naujoji Vilnia, where a soccer training academy is planned, an area of ​​17 hectares with the possibility of expanding by another 4 hectares. Therefore, it is also possible to build a 4-star football stadium there. But another question arises: what to do with all kinds of celebrations: we could not have dance days at song festivals, etc. However, the question of building a national stadium remains relevant. But we are certainly not in a desperate situation, we have a wide range of solutions.

– Thank you, Chancellor, for your detailed answer on all options. I understand that some analyzes have already been carried out on behalf of the Ministry of Education, Science and Sport. You just see all the comments, here is the conclusion of the evaluation, a lot of everything is written here. But if we summarize what has been written, the essence of the concession contract is no longer there, because you, as the municipality that represents the taxpayers, essentially assumed all the risks of the project and not the private concessionaire.

R. Šimašius: This is probably the main topic of discussion here. Because in Lithuania, not the first concession, there are smaller-scale concessions. But there is everything: the road under the concession, the schools, the detention centers. And everywhere the public sector bears all the risks. Basically it is a construction with redemption.

In this case, there is not only a construction risk, and it is very important, perhaps the Kaunas case or the Lazdynai Basin case illustrates very well what it means if a builder fails or disappears. In this case, all risk is borne by the dealer. Not just operation, administration, maintenance, we wouldn’t mind if someone broke in there, everything [rūpintųsi] concessionaire. But even commercial risks. [prisiima] exactly the same. We have indicators of how many children need to be there. And everything: those indicators must be reached by a private dealer.

In this case, all commercial risks are transferred, unlike seizures or highways, where such risks cannot even be transferred to the dealer. So here is the biggest award of all the awards made. I think there has been a misunderstanding in the VPN, I hope we will clear it up.

Returning to the question of location, it is clear that this place is the best. If we move the national stadium to somewhere in New Vilnius … There is definitely a need for soccer fields, kids should come to train, etc., but when it comes to competitions, concerts, etc., it is natural that only suitable to go by car, somewhere outside downtown

In this case, a large part of the people live here, and here is a place adapted to an urban object. In an urbanistic sense, this is an almost ideal option.

– Well, and probably everyone should realize that the national stadium is not just about soccer: first of all, soccer in Lithuania is not worth such an investment, and I don’t know when it will be.

R. Šimašius: Here is the chicken and egg dilemma that can be solved forever: as long as there is no stadium, there is no soccer, and as long as there is no soccer, there is no stadium … At least for children in my category children like soccer a lot. The question of where they will disappear next. It can be said that there are no coaches … But there are some of them. And one of those elements of success is having a dream. Is it the decade or fifteen you are playing now, or do you have a dream to fight for the honor of Lithuania? This is inspiring. It is no secret that much of basketball comes into play and remains in it, because there is something to be proud of, there is something to align with.

– Well, but there is a world-class school, world-class coaches, etc.

R. Šimašius: Imagine if there were no arenas in Lithuania, would basketball be so popular?

– There was a time when there were no arenas, and basketball was even more popular than it is now. It was a kind of means of self-expression and a much stronger symbol of national identity.

R. Šimašius: We can discuss that, but the fact that such a stage is necessary.

– Yes, it is possible to argue. Mr Stončaitis, do you think it would make sense to completely abandon such concessions and generate for the state itself, accumulate those funds from the state budget over a period of time, build a public or budgetary body, a national stadium, and operate it for the state itself?

A. Stončaitis: The question is a good one. However, I say that after rejecting all politicization, everyone, not just the Vilnius Municipality or the Government of Lithuania, but the entire public sector in general, must learn from this. The object, let’s be honest, is huge. I really don’t want to agree with the mayor that the idea that such a national stadium can happen, as you say, in a corner, in New Vilnius … This is not a corner.
If we drive from Charles de Gaulle airport, let’s see where those stadiums are built, near the French capital or somewhere. But it’s not about that. I want to remind you once again that budget money is in place at all times and can be used. But in this case, we can treat VPN evaluations differently, lawyers may provide different arguments.

But let’s understand, mayor, when we speak in government, we speak all the time that there should still be a public procurement initiative, not concessions, but public procurement, because there is still, in our opinion, maximum publicity and transparency. I think that after using the planned money and contributing to the Vilnius municipality, what was discussed: I think we would not have such suspicions and such a strange attitude from society that the already established government may have something of the fact that this is the process. …

As a Vilnius resident, I could reasonably hope that I and my family would have been able to visit that item for a long time. But this is not my criticism of this Vilnius government: I really don’t understand, it would be very limited and too simple. I think you are right that such objects that the state, municipality and central government can really refinance, and it is equally possible to build and operate in a transparent, understandable and fast way.

– The project is, the land is, the concept is. There is disagreement about the construction financing model in principle, right?

R. Šimašius: I can say that even the signing date, March 16, has already been set. And the week before they put it on the brakes. In this case, I would like to agree with the Chancellor of the Government and the general direction: it is very important that it exists, it is very important to purify it, etc. But looking at the project, what we have is, in fact, everything we have for the concession, and it is clear that this option and the other options are at least a few years apart. So if we moved on to the next option, many questions would go unanswered.

– For example? Whether the entire project was taken over by a state-established budget agency.

R. Šimašius: I will start with this project. The only place where it is not clear to me personally is that the Ministry of Education does not yet have a concept for a sports museum, as it will be seen inside. Everything else is very necessary. Because sometimes when people say “let’s build a stadium”, they forget what that means. Because the stadium is also two nearby training grounds, and …

– Yes, we have talked about that, which is a very multifunctional object, even the kindergarten is there.

R. Šimašius: Yes, a multifunctional center. In order for it not to be a white elephant in a porcelain store, as the city sometimes says, it must be multifunctional to live not every three nights, but to be a constantly living object.

And regarding the concession, I think it is very important not only to evaluate all the way, not only because it is prepared that it is likely that private money will come in and cost the state only after three years, but also for a period. What we are talking about today is a pandemic: everyone says that we will finally recover after a pandemic in about three years. Generally speaking, it will be a long time before private investment enters money, and somehow we will go after that. In practice, there is an ideal overlap here: in three years, the European Investment Bank would invest almost 100 million euros. EUR, all facilities would be built, jobs would be created in construction and elsewhere, and three years after the first controlling party, the state would start paying. So the award is especially important today. And most important to the reputation of the state, I dare say.

– And the important thing is those impressive investor margins, until now, of course, only hypothetical. When it comes to talking about 240 million. income …

R. Šimašius: We really don’t have to manipulate numbers. 280 million is placed in the municipality, and how much can the concessionaire obtain, if it is successfully rented for concerts and other activities … In the end, to the state with all the interest it would cost, it seems, 128 million. euros The construction itself would cost much less. Naturally, money has a price, buying a risk has a price because the risk is shared.

But I want to go back to the reputation of the state in terms of finishing such projects. I remember 3 or 4 years ago, when there was a stage of searching for possible dealers: I went to all kinds of exhibitions, etc., I offered to participate, I said that here, we offer a good project. And one of the biggest French companies dealing with such things said: you know, we burned in Lithuania some time ago, and we burned ourselves with “Žalgiris” sand, so thank you, we are no longer looking in that direction. Anyone can try what you want …

– Well, these investors, who are now, repeatedly burn with the state …

R. Šimašius: There is more than one burn, but not only are there. There is also a Populus architect company, which has designed hundreds of stadiums, they have also made their contribution, there are other things, legal services … And that rumor about a trustworthy or unreliable partner, the state of Lithuania, is still spreading. spreading. Concessions are like the climate for all projects to move with all projects, that’s why the concession is so important and it would be very dangerous to cross it.

– Well, crossing or not crossing, Mr. Chancellor, should not be a political decision. If something is fixed, the VPN will re-evaluate …

A. Stončaitis: Definitely yes. I just want to talk about the soccer stadium anyway. As I said, we have really changed the situation. Today, we can practically guarantee that the Lithuanian national team and various clubs will be able to play international matches at the Darius and Girėnas stadiums, which meet all international standards, that is, in Kaunas.

Of course, there are also clubs in Vilnius that must guarantee the quality of the game and the competition. As I mentioned, you can build a football stadium, or a stadium of the Lithuanian Football Federation, located today on Stadiono street, near the station, it can be adapted, rebuilt, with the good will of the city of Vilnius. There are alternatives to this. Simply, as I said, that problem must be addressed. Apparently, hardly anyone imagines that Vilnius, like the capital, should not have a national stadium or an alternative to the big celebrations, the big gatherings across Lithuania. Even returning Lithuanians: we have Lithuanian initiatives in the world, etc.

For concessions, yes, there is such a form, but this is very expensive. We can simply talk in three to five years, but you will have to pay. I will have to pay for all of Lithuania, and for the people of Vilnius, and I will have to contribute in some way, but I really do not regret such a good project. But the price is high. And it doesn’t matter if the Vilnius stadium or other object: yes, if you don’t have money now, you may not have to pay right now, but then you paid a lot of money. But otherwise there may be …

– Chancellor, I heard that the debate on the model rotates in a circle, and I do not know how long that debate can continue. You have thought yourself, how much time would you like to spend talking about the funding model again, if not about the project itself? Perhaps in general, there may still be a debate on how much of everything should be there, what kind of premises, what is installed, etc.

A. Stončaitis: I think that if we talk about the possibility of further construction of the national stadium on the Šeškin hill – the honorable mayor has probably provided answers to the comments to the VPT, then the possibilities are several. I think maybe the architectural side could be repaired in some way if we were to take the path of public procurement. There is a way.If it went on in court proceedings, in disputes, of course, a year, a year and a half or two …

One possible option, which is now being discussed very actively in the Government with the soccer federation, is to build a soccer stadium in Naujoji Vilnia instead of the Darius and Girėnas stadium in New Vilnius, or to expand the federation stadium in Stadiono street. These are the considerations. In that case, as we said yesterday, this is not my personal opinion, but the specialists, in four or five years we could have a soccer stadium in Vilnius that meets the four-star standard. And then the disputes would be resolved more. But the question arises if another national stadium will be needed then.

– Simply, the football community alone is probably not enough to talk about the national stadium: there are event organizers and the Athletics Federation … There are many important sports.

R. Šimašius: All the things that are provided there are very important. Only, as I said, the concept of the sports museum needs to be refined, I think the Ministry of Education would do that. I am very happy to hear the Chancellor’s words that the mood, the enthusiasm for doing it, is very good. I hope so.

I hear arguments that we need to find the best option, and so on. I think if the VPN hears the arguments and this project can still go ahead, it will be a great achievement. Because that will mean that after three years, the stadium will be maintained with all the economic gains from it. All the other paths, as the Chancellor mentioned, would take around five years, here, if they are successful, if there was no litigation, and it is unclear if we would have such a good thing.

Summa summaryum – I had to announce a sad news about the death of the stadium last week, but I see that the news mobilized us all, and that means it could be the impetus for that project. I believe and hope very much.