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António Simões is often described in the financial pages of the English press as a “big shot” of the banking world. After brilliant stints at McKinsey and Goldman Sachs, he joined the management of HSBC, the world’s second largest banking group, in terms of assets, in 2007.
In 2012, at just 37 years old, Simões was appointed Chairman of HSBC UK, the British division of this bank, responsible for almost 50,000 employees and 25% of the group’s income. Despite spending almost half his life abroad, António Simões, 39, continues to claim that he is “clearly Portuguese.”
“I have no identity crisis. I am immensely proud to be Portuguese,” he says.
In recent years, this Lisbon lover in love with Aljezur beach and “obsessed” with Ilha and Lamu, his two farmers, and who generally presents himself without complications as “a gay, short and bald Portuguese”, has also become champion of diversity, awarded by the European Diversity Awards and distinguished as the “most inspiring gay executive” by OUTStanding in Business / “Financial Times”.
António Pedro Simões received the Quick at HSBC’s world headquarters, a 42-story skyscraper in the Canary Wharf financial center in London. The interview was published in January in the magazine. AND And now it is republished on the day it was announced that it will chair HSBC Europe, the continent’s largest bank and one of the largest in the world.
Do you follow closely what is happening in Portugal?
From a personal point of view, yes, I follow a lot. I still have my family in Portugal: my parents, my sister, etc. – And many friends, obviously. I am still somehow related to Portugal and I try to contribute and keep this connection very deep. I am very proud to be Portuguese.
What does that mean?
I lived in Portugal until I was 22 years old. Almost as much abroad, it’s true, but it’s different. If I had left Portugal at 10, 14 or even 17 or 18, it would have been different. I went to university in Portugal. The entire basis of my training, not only academic but especially my personal training, was carried out in Portugal.
I feel clearly Portuguese. I have no identity crisis. I don’t feel like a citizen of the world. I am a Portuguese who has lived in many cities: in New York, Milan, Hong Kong, etc. – And now I am Portuguese and I live in London. I think that many of my perspectives on the world and on life in general are influenced by the way I was educated in Portugal and by values that are somewhat Portuguese: humility, a certain simplicity of life, a kind of attenuation That has a lot to do with the Portuguese.
Nuno Botelho
Do you see the fact that you are Portuguese as an advantage?
Is there anything in the Portuguese character that helps us to adapt easily and succeed abroad? Maybe. We return to the question of humility: I think the Portuguese adapt well because they are very humble.
Doesn’t this humility often slip into servility and servility?
Sometimes yes. It is a problem of self-confidence. I recently said that I am very proud to be Portuguese, but I am also aware that perhaps I am not a typical Portuguese in that sense. It is important to have ambition and self-confidence, which are things that are lacking in Portugal.
For obvious reasons. It was not just a few decades, but centuries of little economic development and very little self-confidence. In addition to this adaptability and humility, many Portuguese living abroad have a work ethic that continues to make a difference.
For this reason, many of them hold positions abroad, which perhaps would not be expected given the size of the country and our number of inhabitants.
The largest British bank, Lloyds, also has a Portuguese president. Do you talk a lot with António Horta Osório?
Yes. We know each other pretty well.
Is there some kind of Portuguese brotherhood between the two?
A special connection between the two Portuguese CEOs who curiously chair two of the UK’s largest banks? Not necessarily. We see each other a lot, on the one hand, by the Portuguese Council of Diaspora and all kinds of initiatives related to Portugal. On the other hand, I see him at some banking events in London, as I see other presidents of other banks.
What do you think about him?
We get along pretty well. In my previous career we had various interactions. I respect him a lot as a banker and as a person. He has, in fact, immense merit in what he did.
It is not easy being a banker in England today. The level of confidence in the financial industry is very low. Bankers are frowned upon. According to a recent YouGov-Cambridge poll, only 17% of Britons believe that a bank president is telling the truth. In other words, 83% of people in this country believe that everything I have said so far is a lie.
Horta Osório said more or less the same thing a few weeks ago: “The common mortal believes that the banker steals,” he said.
It is true. The same study revealed that the level of confidence in the banking sector [britânico] it is much lower than in other countries. In Portugal, probably, it is also very low. And if you think that 20, 30 or 40 years ago, this level of confidence in the financial sector and banking in particular was as high as it was in doctors! Now it is so low that it is on the same level as the politicians. Or journalists [risos]. Clearly we begin to compete with politicians in the fight for that last place.
But I am still proud to be a banker. After all, I believe that the banking system can, or should, be a force for economic development. But to do so, the bankers themselves have to demonstrate that this is true. We have to return, objectively, to a point where society accepts the value of banking as a force for development.
But weren’t the banks to blame for this mistrust, for this discredit of the bankers?
Obviously, the blame for all these statistics depends entirely on the banks, there is no other way to think about it. Most of the 43,000 people who work for me here in the UK are no longer proud to be employees of the bank. This is a problem, because 99.99% of the people who work for us have never been involved in the PPI scandal. [seguros de créditos] or other problems [da banca britânica]. It is not your fault. We are talking about normal people who are at the pub at six or seven at night and are ashamed to say that they work for the bank. They prefer to say that they work in financial services, IT, etc.
Nuno Botelho
How do you plan to reverse this situation?
Banks must refocus on their essential function. That is, receiving deposits, making loans, facilitating payments, and therefore helping economies develop, helping companies grow, and helping people realize their personal ambitions in terms of buying a home, for example. That is our role.
Banks are here to serve the population. Our job is not to speculate. Much of the work I did in my early years at HSBC was undoing some of the disastrous acquisitions we had made. We closed or sold 74 businesses because we reached a point where we had expanded too much. And Stuart Gulliver’s strategy [CEO do Grupo HSBC] Who I worked with in late 2010 and early 2011 was precisely this: getting back to the core of the banking business.
Were you surprised by the BES debacle?
No comment [risos] I was surprised? [pausa] Let me put it in a different perspective. Basically I don’t follow the Portuguese financial system, so I have no opinion on BES. I hope the situation can be resolved. Many countries have had problems with bank supervision and endogenous problems to the banks themselves.
One of BES’s problems was precisely that of supervision. But if you think of the UK, Spain and many other countries, you have had similar problems. Not that this is an excuse, quite the contrary. The important thing is that these problems are addressed relatively quickly so that the financial system can function again. So you can do what you really have to do: help the economy develop.
Going back to his career: McKinsey partner at 30, HSBC UK president at 37. Where do you expect to be at 45, 50?
What is the limit? I have no limit. I never had a very defined professional career. Things were happening. I was very lucky, with some effort and some work. I really like HSBC. I think the bank’s values, the way [o banco] It survived the crisis, its solidity, and the fact that it is somehow supranational, a bank with truly global status, matches my perspective on the world.
What gave you the most pleasure or pride during your career?
I am very proud to have worked at McKinsey, clearly. McKinsey is a great institution and was instrumental in my personal and professional training. I learned a lot during the almost ten years that I was there. It is an extraordinary company in terms of its focus on meritocracy. I worked in the Lisbon, Madrid and London offices and did projects in Greece, Singapore, the Netherlands, etc. In London, we had 40 nationalities.
I am proud to have been chosen as a partner at age 30, which is relatively rare. It was a very important point in my career.
But isn’t being a big bank president at 37 even weirder?
Yes, it is less common. But of all the major milestones, professionally, what I’m most proud of is being elected a McKinsey partner. The choice is complex. The decision is global, but the office where it is located has to propose the name. Must have a sponsor and pass certain criteria. It is a very complex process.
An election, they say, more complicated than the Pope’s election.
[risos] No, quite the contrary. Without wanting to make religious comments, the processes at McKinsey are very objective in that regard. I was very surprised when I was chosen. Obviously he was counting on being chosen, but he thought it would only happen in the next cycle. I perfectly remember what Ian Davis: the Managing Director (or CEO) of McKinsey at the time and now President of Rolls-Royce, said to me, “Whatever happens the rest of your life, you will never stop being a McKinsey partner.”
That feeling of pride, the fact that I worked hard to get to that point, that achievement was important to me at the time. Then i left [da McKinsey] Because I had this opportunity I am proud to be doing what I am doing now as President of the bank in the UK. Not just because of my age, but because I can lead 43,000 people.
McKinsey is probably the most famous consulting firm in the world. It has a certain aura of secrecy, almost like a cult or Masonic lodge.
I think it is less a cult and more a myth. This myth is something fed by them. It is one of the companies that I know of, HSBC is also excellent in this perspective, which has a real focus on meritocracy. What really counts is only merit.
He earned an MBA at Columbia Business School in New York. Why did you choose this school?
I thought I was destined to go to Harvard. I had Harvard tattooed on my arm. In the last year of my career, the teachers encouraged me a lot and I started thinking about doing my PhD. [em Harvard]. But then I joined McKinsey. I really liked the academic part, but I thought it would be more interesting to work. McKinsey strongly encourages business analysts, which was what it was then, to do an MBA and I decided to apply. Many Portuguese take the MBA at INSEAD [em Fontainebleau, França] because it’s only a year and closer to home. I chose a two-year MBA in New York. He was quite young and wanted to be in a big city like San Francisco, London or New York.
A matter of taste, preferably for a large urban center?
A matter of life experience. However, Lisbon is a very small city where 99% of people are very homogeneous and there is very little diversity. I also spoke to Stanford, but they told me that at 23 years old it wasn’t even worth applying for the MBA: “Work another three or four years and then come talk to us.” Most people apply for three or four MBAs, but I applied only to Columbia. I enjoyed the New York experience.
Nuno Botelho
When you took the MBA in the United States, did you feel that in terms of preparation you were better or worse than the other students?
I was the youngest MBA student and had a very strong academic side at Nova University. The technical quality of teaching. [na Nova] – in terms of mathematics, the academic base – it was very, very good. Nova, especially in economics, had many professors who had studied in the main schools of economics in the United States, such as Chicago, Harvard, etc.
Therefore, he did not feel inferior.
Nova’s teaching is much stronger than that of many American schools. In such a way that, thanks to my Portuguese academic training, I was invited to be an assistant professor, basically I gave practical classes, answered the questions of the students, Statistics and then Microeconomics in the MBA course, at the same time that I did the rest of my studies. In fact, I don’t think I have given up hope of doing something more academic. I really enjoyed being an assistant professor at Columbia University.
Is the research missing, the contact with the students?
More by contact with students and not so much by research. I enjoyed teaching. I think there are interesting parts [na investigação]But, despite everything, both economics and administration are less exact sciences. Research may be interesting, but it is less stimulating. The same concrete results of research in the field of natural sciences, for example, are not being achieved. But this is probably my prejudice.
And where would you like to teach? Lisbon, New York, Harvard, London?
I really like London. I think going back to the United States would be difficult.
Why?
I enjoyed studying in New York, but I think living in the United States is a little different. I prefer to stay in Europe. London is a truly cosmopolitan city. In New York, everyone is trying to become a New Yorker. Although there is much melting pot, the culture is very American and ends up being very dominated by the American worldview. New York is much more diverse than the rest of the American cities, much more open and cosmopolitan than the rest of the United States. But it doesn’t compare to London. London is a truly multi-racial, multi-ethnic and much more interesting city.
Don’t you plan to return to Portugal one day?
I have relatively close relations with Portugal. I go there a lot. The great advantage of being in London is that we are two and a half hours from Lisbon. I get to Portugal faster than many parts of England. I travel a lot in the UK. When I was appointed CEO, I decided to divide my time into three parts: a third with clients, a third with our employees (I organize conferences, monthly lunches, mentoring, etc.) and another third for everything else (strategy, governanceetc.) But even though I start working at 6:30 a.m., I don’t know if I’m doing everything. I have a rule: I like to visit a counter, a call center, a call center commercial Banketc. per day, that is, five per week.
The idea is that if I am the CEO of HSBC for four years, I will visit all the bank’s facilities.
Is that part of your management concept?
An important point in the leadership of a bank with 43,000 employees is visibility. I try to spend as little time as possible in the “tower”.
What advice would you give to a young Portuguese graduate?
The country lives in a climate of discouragement and it is important to react. Young people cannot feel overwhelmed by the economic situation in the country. They should be optimistic and try to strike a balance between ambition / trust and work ethic / humility. I grew up in a perfectly normal family. A great family, who gave me a lot of support, but without any privilege. This determined my perspective on the importance of merit and meritocracy. My two parents worked in the financial area, in insurance. They taught me the importance of honesty and work discipline that I have today.
Do you have idols? Who is the person, from any field, that you really admire?
I have few role models. The buzzword here would be to quote the Dalai Lama or Gandhi, but I don’t have these excellent models. I have worked extensively with the World Economic Forum in Davos. I met many people through the Forum who, precisely because they are not in business or banking, people who work in the government, in NGOs and who do things that are completely different from my day to day, these people, for me, They are much more interesting examples.
Besides Stephan Morais, you are the only one young world leader Portuguese in Davos.
It was. I am now former world leader [risos]. I have been in Davos for the past six years and will now be back in late January.
But there certainly are people in the business that you really admire.
The two leaders of the big companies I worked for. At McKinsey, Ian Davis is an extraordinary example of meritocracy. At the HSBC Group, our CEO, Stuart Gulliver. At this level, they are probably two of the people I admire the most.
José Mourinho is undoubtedly the most famous Portuguese in London. Have you ever come across him? What do you think about him?
I highly respect José Mourinho. I’m even a Chelsea fan, except on December 10, when I was at Stamford Bridge watching Sporting’s elimination from the Champions League.
Sportinguista?
I’m not a big fan, but I’m from Sporting, like my father. José Mourinho is also part of the Council of Diaspora, so we will meet with certain frequency. It is the perfect symbol of the meritocracy I was talking about and I am proud that it is Portuguese.
I see you have a fitness tracker on your wrist How do you keep fit?
I exercise regularly I train with mine personal trainer three times a week and I do yoga on Sundays.
What books do you have on your nightstand?
I don’t normally read a lot of business books, but right now I have all the [livros] finalists of the “Financial Times Business Book of the Year” award. I was at the awards dinner at the Victoria & Albert Museum and everyone offered it to me. I am reading Thomas Piketty’s “Capital in the 21st Century”, I have finished Andrew McAfee / Erik Brynjolfsson’s “The Second Age of Machines” and want to read “House of Debt” by Atif Mian / Amir Sufi and the “Dragnet Nation “by Julia Angwin. I sat next to him during dinner, very interesting.
Nuno Botelho
Have time for hobbies?
Not much. As I said, I start work at 6:30 am and I have a relatively strict discipline regarding what I do during the week. One day a week I try to do something more interesting with Tomás, my husband: a trip to the theater, the cinema or another show. We lived in Hong Kong for two years and there was very little cultural offer. We are trying to catch up. I also try to reduce nights of effective work, with clients or any other type of business, to once a week.
Where did you meet your husband?
Tomás is Spanish from the Canary Islands, but he studied in Madrid and came to work in London more than 15 years ago. We met at a mutual friend’s birthday party in the summer of 2002.
He has always been very sincere about his sexual orientation and has become the president of a major British bank. Do you think that would be possible in Portugal? Someone outside Throughout your career, could you become CEO of a Portuguese bank?
Of course, it would be possible if someone invited me to be CEO of a bank in Portugal, for example [pausa]. Obviously we have the example of Tim Cook, who is interesting, that is, he ended up being the CEO of the largest company in the world. [Apple]. But only later did he come out of the closet.
Tim Cook was not openly gay, but he did not hide or pretend either, contrary to what still happens a lot in Portugal.
Yes, he never denied it. But in Portugal I think there are many examples of people who in their personal lives are relatively outside and that they have a certain openness as homosexuals, although they do not do so in the professional world. I don’t know if it is possible, it is a hypothetical question, but I think Tim Cook has shown that it is possible to do it and that this is not a problem.
I talked a lot about this with him [lorde] John Browne [antigo presidente da BP, demitiu-se em 2007 após revelações sobre a sua homossexualidade]. Now he’s written a book [“The Glass Closet”] on the matter. Browne’s problem is that he’s from another generation. That’s his argument: since he never came out of the closet, then it’s hard to do it when you turn 50 and I don’t know how old. But Tim Cook showed that this is possible, that it can be done gradually. I think the most important thing now, thinking about my generation, is that people who are out of the closet throughout their careers become presidents of a bank or a large company in Portugal.
We are talking about a small country, with an elite in the world of politics and business where everyone knows and constantly intersects. Portuguese society has already evolved, both on a political level, in terms of rights and recognition of same-sex marriage, for example, and on a social level. I think that in social terms there is no problem in being gay in Lisbon. So I say that there is a personal responsibility, professionally, to get out of the closet completely. If we want to live in true meritocracy, the only thing that should really matter is merit. What matters is what you can do, not what you are. This should give people confidence and protection. LGBT or gay people have an individual responsibility not to think this is a problem. I rationalized it in my head.
How?
Most gay people think that being gay is okay, that it is not a big disadvantage, or that it is neutral. They must think that being gay is an advantage and not a disadvantage. I think being gay is a plus for me. It made me a more authentic person, with better empathy, better emotional intelligence. If he wasn’t gay, he might not be the CEO of the bank. In the book “The Glass Closet”, John Browne writes precisely on the subject of homophobia in the business world and on the challenges and provocations to which gay employees are subject.
Have you ever felt any kind of discrimination in the highly competitive and sexist world of the city of London?
No, I never had any kind of discrimination problem. On the contrary. Obviously, everyone felt that they somehow felt like strangers at some point in their lives or careers. For any reason. Because you come to a new city or school and you don’t know anyone. It happens to a person who comes from the wrong side of the city. Or because someone is from Porto and comes to Lisbon and has a different accent. We have all been in this situation in some way. I always thought that the right way to think is to believe that the system is fair enough and that through good work ethic, good education and a little effort, you will end up being paid and rewarded through career progression. I think it is important not to have an attitude of victimization in this type of problem. In 2015, definitely not. That was probably true in the 1980s. When I started working, the environment was not as inclusive as it is today.
You still hear questions like “what is your wife doing?”
It happened a lot. Sometimes I answer: “My husband also works in the financial area”; or I anticipate and say, “My husband files for divorce if I don’t get home in time to walk the dogs.” But the truth is that being the president of the bank and having talked about it so many times, nobody asks. And on the other hand, society is so politically correct, especially in England, and London in particular, that we live in this dome of acceptability where no one will say anything at all. In December we had our annual dinner with the bank’s management and, of course, Tomás was there with me. I have this responsibility, so that the people who work with me see that I treat this subject in a very natural way.
How did the family in Portugal deal with the problem?
With the same naturalness and support as father, mother and sister. It was not always easy for them, given the environment of Portuguese society. But I have always lived in an environment with immense support from friends and family.
This “naturalness” is perhaps rare in Portugal.
Yes, but that’s why I talk about it. So that it becomes more natural. I recently said at a conference that it is much stranger, and statistically improbable, that I am 39 and Portuguese and bank president than the fact that I am gay and bank president. It will never happen again in HSBC’s history that a 39-year-old half-bald and half-bald Portuguese will be president of the bank again. But I hope, in fact, I am sure, that we will have many more gay CEOs in the coming generations.
By the way: what does your husband do?
Tomás is much smarter than me. Work less and more successfully. He also works in the financial area. You have your own company, which raises funds for hedge funds.
[Texto publicado originalmente na Revista E de 17 de janeiro de 2015]
