LONDON – This summer, a coalition of American theater artists released a statement, “We See You, White American Theater,” calling for a review of the country’s theater scene. There should be deadlines for theater industry leaders to improve the performance, she said, and at least half of the actors and creative teams should be people of color.
Many of the same performance problems plague theater in Europe. Last month, Black Lives Matter protests erupted in Britain and theaters issued messages of support, as well as statements promising action against racism. This month, 400 British creatives signed an open letter calling for industry reform. “We cannot accept empty gestures,” he said, before listing five areas for change.
Performance in the theater business is also a problem in other parts of Europe, despite the fact that most major theaters receive government subsidies and calls are growing for theaters to reflect their local populations on stage.
On Wednesday, Kwame Kwei-Armah, 53, artistic director of the Young Vic theater in London; Julia Wissert, 36, artistic director of Schauspiel Dortmund in Germany; and Eva Doumbia, 51, founder of the French theater company La Part du Pauvre, met at Zoom to discuss their experiences.
“I am very excited to be doing this,” said Kwei-Armah as he joined the call.
For two hours, the group found some differences and many similarities in the theatrical landscapes of their countries. When Doumbia (who spoke through a translator) said that he had organized a festival to present the work of Afro-European writers and directors, Wissert, who is the only black head of a large theater in Germany, replied that he did not believe that would work in Germany. “If you are too explicit here when you talk about racism, everyone just freezes over,” he said.
“We all have to negotiate and shadow white supremacy,” said Kwei-Armah. But the recent Black Lives Matter protests inspired a change of heart. “I’m done,” he said.
All three also discussed white universality, decolonizing theatrical institutions and their problems with the word “diversity.” These are edited excerpts from the conversation.
What is the state of diversity in the theatrical scenes of your countries?
JULIA WISSERT I just hate talking about diversity, because I am not interested in diversity. I don’t want to diversify anything. I am interested in the question of representation: representation in the structure, in positions of power, between people who give money to theaters, artistic directions.
Most of these [people in charge in Germany] They are homogeneous: white, middle-class, mostly male, mostly cisgender. It is changing very slowly, but at the end of the day I think we are at the beginning of this conversation.
When I got my job, a journalist started an interview with: “Were you as surprised by this announcement as the theater world was?” And I can understand that people thought it was a surprise because obviously I’m too young to hold that position, because you have to be 60 to be an artistic director here, and of course you have to be a man and of course you shouldn’t black.
EVA DOUMBIA I also don’t like to talk about diversity. When I do, it’s always on a diplomatic level more than anything. In France, most of the time we use the idea of diversity as a tool to polish our racism and put it in opposition to racism in the United States. We call that true racism.
But the Black Lives Movement and what happened with George Floyd, there was a French echo with Adama Traoré. [a 24-year-old man who died in police custody in 2016]. The Black Lives Matter protests reactivated those feelings here and rekindled that issue of representation in society, in the theater.
KWAME KWEI-ARMAH What we have found in Britain are the people who are invariably the George Floyds, the people on the front line, usually of African descent. But when it comes to diversity, we are usually right at the end of the line.
The history of structural inequality here has meant that there are few black British art directors who have been in place for more than two or three years. This is a wonderful moment when we are saying, “We want this time to be upon us!” And within the theater sphere, that is revolutionary because it means that when I enter an institution, I have to enter and decolonize not only what is on stage, but also the business model and culture of the organization.
Do you feel capable of performing plays about the reality of black lives in your country?
DOUMBIA What usually happens in France is that we invite people from Africa: directors, creatives. There is a kind of consolation they are talking about from their perspective, so it is not the opinion of someone born in France who knows their racism from kindergarten. There is a sense of confidence that they will never challenge what is stated here.
We do speak of French racism on stage, but blacks never address it. They are mainly white directors who do plays for white audiences. It’s fine to have black artists, actors, and dancers, but black creators are not as widely accepted.
WISSERT I would say here that it is exactly the same. The most important discussions we are having right now in Germany is the question of white universality: the white body is neutral and the white artist can speak at any time. There is no understanding
DOUMBIA I have the feeling of feeling a bit stuck sometimes. Because you want to be able to tell your stories and tell them to the greatest number of people. But at the same time, you feel that you are assigned to a category: they see you as a black person because of the white gaze.
KWEI-ARMAH I don’t know exactly what “black” work is and, as we know, the word black is a political construct. It means different things in different spaces. But what I am really clear about is that there is a tax from our white public, many of whom are quite tribal and who, the moment they see someone black on the poster, they think that [the play] it is somehow niche.
When we see a white story, we see a white actor and the race becomes secondary. Come on, “Oh, this is a story about redemption.” But sometimes the white audience will see a black face and say, “Oh, this is a story about racism.” Or “Oh, it’s for them.” And that is the false binary that we need to defeat in this country. And we are not close to defeating it.
Are diversity goals or quotas the answer?
DOUMBIA Can I make an analogy with the masks we are always talking about? In a normal world with Covid, you wouldn’t have to tell people to wear a mask to avoid getting sick, right? And still you have to tell them. It is the same with fees. In a world with common sense we would not have to ask for them, and yet without them nothing would be done. Although it would be difficult to have them here, because we have this great tradition of official color blindness. [In France it remains illegal to collect data on race for almost all official purposes.]
WISSERT In Germany, I wish we had a share because I believe, or hope, that it would start a conversation and force colleagues to think differently, in addition to giving other artists the opportunity to gain positions of power. I’ve had enough of people saying, “I really want to do something.” I no longer want to hear good will, because good will got us nowhere.
I would even go further and connect that fee to subsidies – there are no repercussions right now if you don’t have people of color in your institution. You can be ashamed on social media and people call you. But that is basically it.
Do you have quotas at the Young Vic, Kwame?
KWEI-ARMAH My former self in shadowboxing would have broken the quota connotations and tried to make it seem polite and smooth and not threatening to my white colleagues, so as not to make them worry that they would somehow lose something they were naturally born into.
My me after Black Lives Matter actually says, “I don’t understand the question.” Democracy means that you must reflect your environment. And if you are not reflecting your surroundings, you are repressing someone. Quotas are a euphemism for “Should we let black people in?”
In truth, incremental change is fine, but we are not at the time of incremental change.
Theaters across Europe are currently facing financial difficulties after being forced to close due to the coronavirus. Are you concerned that it may affect efforts to improve diversity?
WISSERT Our season had been announced when Covid happened. But what he did for us was allow us to rethink the idea of what theater really is. It’s about: How do we relate to an audience? What stories are we really telling? So we use this crisis to go to the city and say, “We are not going to make money for about two years, but we are going to go out to the communities and create projects that can really involve people who do not normally come to the theater.
KWEI-ARMAH When we entered Covid, I was about to announce my new season, and the centerpiece of that was, for lack of a better term, a “black British experience.” And as soon as we started bleeding money, I said, “That’s the one that has to go.” Writers are not that well known, and it’s a big expensive project.
But then Black Lives Matter happened, and I said, “No! That has to be the leader of the pack. Everything else takes second place, now it becomes the spirit of the time, since the theater is here to reflect society and speak about it from its heart. This time it has allowed me to keep my truth without compromise.
