Pieter Muller, former Springbok center, talks to Sport24

Pieter Muller during the celebration of the life of former Springbok Chester Williams at Boland cricket stadium in Paarl on September 12, 2019.

• Former Springbok inner center Pieter Muller, who played 33 Tests for his country, talks about how Damian de Allende and Lukhanyo Am’s midfielder association surprised him and explains why Andre Snyman was his favorite partner in the Test center.
• The former Cheetahs and Sharks midfielder unravels the difficult decision to expel the Cheetahs from an expanded PRO16 competition and what the future holds.
• He also looks forward to the Green v Gold Test match in Newlands on Saturday and how it is an ideal opportunity for young players to stake their claim for the Test selection.

Sport24 asked: Born in Bloemfontein, where do you call home now?

Pieter Muller: I’ve been living in Stellenbosch for a while, but I’m still not a converted Stormers fan. I think you have to go through the 10-year cycle before you can call yourself a true Capetonian. The number one South African team for me is the Sharks, but the Cheetahs are very close to second and close to my heart. Sad to see Cheetahs have been sidelined from an expanded PRO16 competition. It is one of the unions that has been strong in terms of producing players and winning local competitions. The Cheetahs deserve a fair chance, but we cannot ignore the fact that Saru is also looking at the situation from a financial point of view and accommodating the best teams. It’s a tough task trying to accommodate everyone, especially in light of Covid-19. However, there must be a place for cheetahs, as they are a very important rugby factory for the rest of South Africa. I think South African rugby needs the Cheetahs franchise because they can still be strong enough. They competed very well in PRO14 and I think we have to find a place for them.

Sport24 asked: Has Super Rugby run its course in its current form?

Pieter Muller: I think we need something new. Super Rugby has reached a point where the organizers have to make it more exciting or go in a different direction. Saru has decided to gain exposure to the north. It will be good to see what the top four South African teams can offer in Europe and there is a larger audience along with an easier travel schedule. However, it is important that the Rugby Championship continues, as it is a great championship. The Springboks must also play New Zealand, Australia and Argentina. In terms of playing in the Rugby Championship this season, he returns to Saru, with financial problems at stake. The South African public is hungry for rugby and the Springboks have been inactive for the past few months. After the excitement of the World Cup, we have to rebuild it. South Africa are the champions of the world and we want to see the Springboks in action. I think we need that proper competition against the Sanzaar nations. It will be a tough championship this season and we will see which team can last more than eight weeks. The All Blacks are not easy to beat and will come back strong because they have a point to prove. The All Blacks can adapt to any environment, but they somehow level the playing field by facing them in back-to-back events in Australia rather than New Zealand. The Bok will seek to put a score and show that they are the best.

Sport24 asked: Your take on the Springbok Showdown?

Pieter Muller: This Saturday’s game will be great as we will see some future stars. For the fans, I think the concept is incredible to see current fans alongside future stars. It’s about getting rid of the cobwebs and getting the boys back to playing competitive rugby. The Gold and Green teams are fairly well balanced and there is not much to choose between the two sides. I think it depends on the young people on both sides and who is going to raise their hand to be a possible candidate for the Bok. A South African-based team will always prove to be strong, but the question we’ve been asking ourselves for years is what would a South African team based abroad look like versus a locally based one? It’s good to know that we have a second team abroad and we can call on those players when we need them. It would be a close competition, but I think we have to back our Boks at home… In terms of crosses, Francois Steyn and Wandisile Simelane are paired in midfield for Green while Rikus Pretorius and Lukhanyo Am will do it for Gold. It is a nice mix of youth and experience. Munster-based Damian de Allende has done well, but we want the young centrals to push for places, otherwise, as a player, you won’t be at your best. To be world champions you must stay at your best with the youngsters pushing you from behind. As for the objectives of the respective coaches, they will want to see in what form the players are and which of the young people will be able to take the step to Test rugby. National coaches already know what they have in terms of personnel and it is about opening the net and seeing which youngsters can come in if older players suffer an injury or loss of form.

Sport24 asked: What makes an association of centers effective?

Pieter Muller: For the Springboks, Andre Snyman and I work well together. As a combination, it clicks or not. Andre and I reached a level where we understood each other and the same has happened with De Allende and Am. Before the World Cup, I was a bit skeptical that theirs were a good combination of centers. However, they did very well during the tournament. They played very well together and combined offensively and defensively to devastating effect. Am is a great ball player and reminds me of Danie Gerber in his heyday. The former is in the right place at the right time and is accurate with its downloading skills. The De Allende-Am center pair is a good combination because there is brute force alongside skill. De Allende is not a one-trick pony and also possesses great unloading skills and can keep the ball alive. A No. 12 has moved away from being a crash-baller and the modern interior hub is more of a playmaker. You need to serve as a 10 second and be able to make decisions. However, you still need to be strong defensively and get over the win line. As for Am, who will be the captain of the gold team, his leadership skills stand out. Speak very well and lead by example.

Sport24 asked: How have you seen Rassie Erasmus evolve?

Pieter Muller: Rassie was already analyzing the game and the opposition during his playing days. He had that ability from a young age. He showed when he trained the Cheetahs that he was one step ahead and that his practical knowledge was amazing. In terms of all the planning he did before the 2019 World Cup, I don’t think we could understand him from the outside. He planned everything to perfection and then the plan was solved with only the players backing 100%. He became that player-coach who had that relationship with all the players. Considering her health issues, what Rassie has accomplished with the Springboks is even more impressive. Rassie is a fighter and she knew she would come out of it and she did. He did his best for the team and at the end of the day that’s the most important thing. I haven’t socialized with Rassie in the last year and a half, but speaking of our rugby days, he can tune out. He’s willing to have a little fun and have a couple of beers. However, as a World Cup winning coach, you have to be very selective when it comes to being in certain places. I don’t think you would like to be seen in public, as you would be overwhelmed. As a public figure, you can isolate yourself a bit in the sense of where you are and what you can do. Rassie is now the full-time director of the rugby role, but will always be involved with the Boks. Jacques Nienaber has been with Rassie for many years and will continue that way of thinking and that pattern of play. The Boks want to continue building and leave a legacy.

Sport24 asked: Your memories of facing the All Blacks?

Pieter Muller: My first and last test matches were against New Zealand. It was quite special and like Springbok you want to start your first game against the All Blacks. Playing against the All Blacks was the best and growing up was what we, as young South Africans, wanted to do. In terms of my last test, it was the third fourth place play-off at the 1999 World Cup. Both we and the All Blacks could have been in the final. It was a special way to end my international career and play against Jonah Lomu for the last time. I did my best to knock it down, but it didn’t work! I think James Small was more effective in 1995 in terms of marking Lomu. It’s hard to believe that James has been gone for more than a year. We played together for SA Schools and he was a special player. Off the field, he was high maintenance, but on the field he was a high speed player. You need players like him on a team as he does a full side. I think around the time he played he was misunderstood. James was like the Dennis Rodman of rugby and had his own mission. If you let him go, you will get the best of him, but if you cage him you end up ruining his style. In the early 1990s, rugby was still amateurish and some coaches did not know how to react to a player like James. I think it was quite difficult for James to express himself fully. He was the type of person you didn’t want to be on the wrong side with and he could get mad pretty quickly but, after venting, he would get over it.

Sport24 asked: Is development working within rugby SA?

Pieter Muller: I was involved with the South African Rugby Legends Association from 2008 to 2018. We started the Vuka rugby program and in 2014 we had a discussion with Saru to do a national rollout of a development program that we were doing in the Cape in around 120 schools. We developed a comprehensive strategy to get non-traditional rugby schools back to play. When I left, we saw between 25,000 and 30,000 children playing Vuka rugby weekly … In terms of transformation, in 1994 I remember saying that we would have to wait for almost two generations before we could reap the rewards. Saru made many mistakes along the way, but they have learned as they go. Looking at the current Springbok team and the players passing through the different levels, Saru is reaching his goals and we are seeing a natural talent emerging from the system. Vuka, along with other development programs, are paying off. As far as the Springbok World Cup team is concerned, there was no better team that could have been selected.

Previous chats:

Andre Snyman